By SayUncle
In an update to the FN Pistol non-controversy, the Brady Campaign has issued a press release urging congress to ban the gun. Nevermind that the gun isn’t available to the public, the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms notes that the round is not armor piercing.
The anti-gunners always need a bogeyman, even if they must invent it.
Update: Apparently, someone from the Brady Campaign reports that they purchased one which I find odd. The FN page (which is now gone but here’s a google cache) says the pistol is for military and law enforcement only.
[feedback elided]
Wednesday, February 02, 2005
FN 5.7 Pistol (another blog)
FN 5.7 Pistol
According to the ATF, responding to a press release from the Brady Campaign to End Handgun Violence, the “SS196” pistol cartridge for the FN 5.7 pistol is not armor piercing.
First, a gun picture:
Ah, yes, welcome to the plastic fantastic twenty-first century.
Second, the Brady claims:
The gun, the Five-SeveN handgun manufactured by FN Herstal of Belgium, is lightweight and easily concealable. IBPO Legislative Director Steve Lenkhart referred to the Five-Seven as “an assault rifle that fits in your pocket.”
If it was an assault rifle, then it would be fully automatic. The version sold to private citizens is not, of course, as it would be regulated under the National Firearms Act of 1934 and thus unavailable to private citizens, like any fully automatic firearm made after 1968.
It is marketed by the company on its website as intended “to defeat the enemy in all close combat situations in urban areas, jungle conditions, night missions and any self defense action. Enemy personnel, even wearing body armor can be effectively engaged up to 200 meters. Kevlar® helmets and vests as well as the CRISAT protection will be penetrated.”
Well, no, the private citizen version of this pistol is not marketed in this fashion. The law enforcement and military version of this pistol is marketed this way. The Brady Campaign is not sensitive to market segments, however, activism is a global issue.
What does the ATF say?
FTB has also examined a 5.7 X 28 mm projectile that FN Herstal has designated the “SS196.” The SS196 is loaded with a Hornady 40 grain, jacketed lead bullet. FTB classified SS196 ammunition as not armor piercing ammunition under Federal firearms statutes.
According to FNH USA, FN Herstal tested the SS192 ammunition. SS192 ammunition did not penetrate the Level IIIA vests that were tested. FNH USA states that SS196, Hornady V-Max 40 gr. bullets fired from a 4-3/4 inch barrel did not penetrate the Level II vests that were used in testing.
FNH USA has informed FTB that SS192 is no longer imported for commercial sale to the United States and that commercial sales of 5.7 X 28mm ammunition are restricted to the SS196 (not armor piercing).
In my opinion, if you want a hot .22 pistol, there are certainly better choices than this expensive number with its expensive ammunition. Criminals and terrorists don't have a lot of money to spend on this crud when there are easier targets.
But to the Brady Campaign there is no easier target than guns it thinks no one should ever need. If you want to boil a frog, you turn the heat up slowly. They attack the .50 caliber guns and the hot .22s and continue working their way towards the middle, at which point no guns or ammunition would be legal.
If I was going to spend another $900 on a pistol, I'd get another 1911, probably a longslide in 10mm. If I had more than that to spend, I'd be getting a .50 GI. I'm not going to waste my time with a hot .22. There are far better target pistols and there are far better defensive pistols. This gun was targeted at people who like to have guns that look like what the professionals use.
Josh Poulson
According to the ATF, responding to a press release from the Brady Campaign to End Handgun Violence, the “SS196” pistol cartridge for the FN 5.7 pistol is not armor piercing.
First, a gun picture:
Ah, yes, welcome to the plastic fantastic twenty-first century.
Second, the Brady claims:
The gun, the Five-SeveN handgun manufactured by FN Herstal of Belgium, is lightweight and easily concealable. IBPO Legislative Director Steve Lenkhart referred to the Five-Seven as “an assault rifle that fits in your pocket.”
If it was an assault rifle, then it would be fully automatic. The version sold to private citizens is not, of course, as it would be regulated under the National Firearms Act of 1934 and thus unavailable to private citizens, like any fully automatic firearm made after 1968.
It is marketed by the company on its website as intended “to defeat the enemy in all close combat situations in urban areas, jungle conditions, night missions and any self defense action. Enemy personnel, even wearing body armor can be effectively engaged up to 200 meters. Kevlar® helmets and vests as well as the CRISAT protection will be penetrated.”
Well, no, the private citizen version of this pistol is not marketed in this fashion. The law enforcement and military version of this pistol is marketed this way. The Brady Campaign is not sensitive to market segments, however, activism is a global issue.
What does the ATF say?
FTB has also examined a 5.7 X 28 mm projectile that FN Herstal has designated the “SS196.” The SS196 is loaded with a Hornady 40 grain, jacketed lead bullet. FTB classified SS196 ammunition as not armor piercing ammunition under Federal firearms statutes.
According to FNH USA, FN Herstal tested the SS192 ammunition. SS192 ammunition did not penetrate the Level IIIA vests that were tested. FNH USA states that SS196, Hornady V-Max 40 gr. bullets fired from a 4-3/4 inch barrel did not penetrate the Level II vests that were used in testing.
FNH USA has informed FTB that SS192 is no longer imported for commercial sale to the United States and that commercial sales of 5.7 X 28mm ammunition are restricted to the SS196 (not armor piercing).
In my opinion, if you want a hot .22 pistol, there are certainly better choices than this expensive number with its expensive ammunition. Criminals and terrorists don't have a lot of money to spend on this crud when there are easier targets.
But to the Brady Campaign there is no easier target than guns it thinks no one should ever need. If you want to boil a frog, you turn the heat up slowly. They attack the .50 caliber guns and the hot .22s and continue working their way towards the middle, at which point no guns or ammunition would be legal.
If I was going to spend another $900 on a pistol, I'd get another 1911, probably a longslide in 10mm. If I had more than that to spend, I'd be getting a .50 GI. I'm not going to waste my time with a hot .22. There are far better target pistols and there are far better defensive pistols. This gun was targeted at people who like to have guns that look like what the professionals use.
Josh Poulson
Police Groups to Warn Officers Nationwide About New Cop Killer Gun, Urge Appropriate Congressional Action
1/26/2005 2:58:00 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
To: Assignment Desk, Daybook Editor
Contact: Anne Rosello of The Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence United with the Million Mom March, 202-898-0792
News Advisory:
The National Organization of Black Law Enforcement Executives, International Association of Chiefs of Police, International Brotherhood of Police Officers and other national law enforcement groups will sound an alarm to law enforcement professionals around the country about a new handgun available to the general public that is capable of firing bullets through soft police body armor.
The press conference will take place at 10 a.m. Thursday, Jan. 27 at the First District headquarters of the District of Columbia Police Department located at 415 Fourth Street SW in Washington, D.C. Speakers will include Bernard Thompson, legislative Chair of NOBLE; Metropolitan Police Assistant Chief Brian Jordan, Gaithersburg, Md. Police Chief MaryAnn Viverette who serves as Vice President of the IACP and Steve Lenkart, Legislative Director of the IBPO.
The gun, the Five-SeveN handgun manufactured by FN Herstal of Belgium, is lightweight and easily concealable. It is marketed by the company on its Web site as intended "to defeat the enemy in all close combat situations in urban areas, jungle conditions, night missions and any self defense action. Enemy personnel, even wearing body armor can be effectively engaged up to 200 meters. Kevlar(r) helmets and vests as well as the CRISAT protection will be penetrated." -- http://www.fnherstal.com/html/Index.htm.
Staff of the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence recently purchased the weapon at a Virginia gun dealer and test-fired it. The bullets successfully penetrated a police Kevlar vest. A video of the test will be shown and available to news media.
http://www.usnewswire.com/
-0-
/© 2005 U.S. Newswire 202-347-2770/
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
To: Assignment Desk, Daybook Editor
Contact: Anne Rosello of The Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence United with the Million Mom March, 202-898-0792
News Advisory:
The National Organization of Black Law Enforcement Executives, International Association of Chiefs of Police, International Brotherhood of Police Officers and other national law enforcement groups will sound an alarm to law enforcement professionals around the country about a new handgun available to the general public that is capable of firing bullets through soft police body armor.
The press conference will take place at 10 a.m. Thursday, Jan. 27 at the First District headquarters of the District of Columbia Police Department located at 415 Fourth Street SW in Washington, D.C. Speakers will include Bernard Thompson, legislative Chair of NOBLE; Metropolitan Police Assistant Chief Brian Jordan, Gaithersburg, Md. Police Chief MaryAnn Viverette who serves as Vice President of the IACP and Steve Lenkart, Legislative Director of the IBPO.
The gun, the Five-SeveN handgun manufactured by FN Herstal of Belgium, is lightweight and easily concealable. It is marketed by the company on its Web site as intended "to defeat the enemy in all close combat situations in urban areas, jungle conditions, night missions and any self defense action. Enemy personnel, even wearing body armor can be effectively engaged up to 200 meters. Kevlar(r) helmets and vests as well as the CRISAT protection will be penetrated." -- http://www.fnherstal.com/html/Index.htm.
Staff of the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence recently purchased the weapon at a Virginia gun dealer and test-fired it. The bullets successfully penetrated a police Kevlar vest. A video of the test will be shown and available to news media.
http://www.usnewswire.com/
-0-
/© 2005 U.S. Newswire 202-347-2770/
The FN FiveSeven being called a "Cop Killer" gun by the Brady gun nuts...
Here's an interesting FACT FILLED letter written by a police officer and sent to the Brady people:
Mr. Shanks,
I'm writing in reference to the Law Enforcement Officers Safety Alert titled, "Cop Killer Gun Available to the Public." I appreciate your concerns for my safety, for I am a police officer with the City of Phoenix, Arizona. However I feel I need to point out some inaccuracies in your news bulletin.
You state that, "In 2003, there were 1,866 officers assaulted in the United States with firearms." That is true, however it's very disingenuous to not continue on to say that this represents only 3% of all assaults on officers (2003 UCR). You will see this is a very small number when compared to the 46,842 assaults involving personal weapons (feet, fists, etc.), 8,059 involving other dangerous weapons (bats, clubs, etc...), and rounding out the bottom of the spectrum 1,074 assaults involving Knives or other cutting instruments.
Maybe you should have stated instead that only 45 Officers were killed in 2003 with a firearms. 34 of those were killed with handguns, and of those 10 were killed with their own weapon. Of those 34 killed none by vest penetration. The 4 officers that were killed by vest penetration were killed by .223 caliber (2), .300, and 7mm caliber rifles. The FN Five-seveN has killed no one.
You also state that the manufacturer advertises that the firearm, "will perforate 48 layers of Kevlar up to 200 meters." That may be true, however this is as advertised to the military and law enforcement while using SS190 armor piercing ammunition. Maybe you should focus on trying to ban the ammunition instead of the gun? Never mind, that ammunition is only available to military and Law enforcement. You see the BATFE has rule for selling ammunition, especially AP ammunition (see Below):
The classification of all ammunition is governed strictly by the definitions presented in the GCA. Specifically, as defined in 18 U.S.C. Section 921(a)(17)(B), the term "armor piercing ammunition" means-
1. a projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun and which is constructed entirely (excluding the presence of traces of other substances) from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper, or depleted uranium; or
2. a full jacketed projectile larger than .22 caliber designed and intended for use in a handgun and whose jacket has a weight of more than 25 percent of the total weight of the projectile.
This type of ammunition is not commercially available. However if you were to purchase this handgun you would be able to buy SS196. This is the only type of ammunition available for commercial sales for this weapon. It uses a Hornady 40gr V-max bullet and leaves the barrel at 2100fps. Interestingly enough this bullet was fired from a FN Five-seveN with a 4 3/4 inch barrel and did not penetrate a Level II vest (by the way most officers like myself wear a level IIIa vest).
You state that this weapon "comes with THREE 20 ROUND MAGAZINES--That is 60 rounds of police body armor piercing ammunition!" Well, no. That means it comes with 3 x 20 round magazines, as for the "police body armor Piercing ammunition(!), well I covered that in the above paragraph.
Also stated is "Because the range and accuracy of this weapon a gunman could easily hold an entire shift of law enforcement officers at bay for hours, making it almost impossible to engage with typical law enforcement service weapons." The accuracy of a weapon is dependant on the trigger puller behind it, not the weapon itself. Most weapons are extremely accurate with the right shooter. I can also tell you I've seen someone with no weapon keep cops at bay for hours just behind a closed door. You don't advocate getting rid of doors do you? An officer with an issue Colt Carbine can easily place rounds on target against someone with one of the FNs. Rifle are inherently more accurate and a more forgiving weapon to shoot.
Lastly sir, you state, "The Brady Center to Prevent Gun Violence believes there is no place in our society for this weapon." Sir, its time to be honest. The Brady Center believes there in no place in our society for ANY type of firearm. All, I repeat ALL, studies have shown that gun control does not deter crime/gun crimes. Since the U.K. and Australia have banned the ownership of most guns the crime rate has soared. Why is it that gun friendly states have the least amount of Crime? I'll make a deal with you. I won't try and take away your constitutional 1st amendment rights to print and distribute your safety alerts full of half-truths and omissions, and you don't mess with my 2nd amendment right to own any type of gun I want. Is it a deal?
sincerely,
Adam Frost
Phoenix Police Dept.
Mr. Shanks,
I'm writing in reference to the Law Enforcement Officers Safety Alert titled, "Cop Killer Gun Available to the Public." I appreciate your concerns for my safety, for I am a police officer with the City of Phoenix, Arizona. However I feel I need to point out some inaccuracies in your news bulletin.
You state that, "In 2003, there were 1,866 officers assaulted in the United States with firearms." That is true, however it's very disingenuous to not continue on to say that this represents only 3% of all assaults on officers (2003 UCR). You will see this is a very small number when compared to the 46,842 assaults involving personal weapons (feet, fists, etc.), 8,059 involving other dangerous weapons (bats, clubs, etc...), and rounding out the bottom of the spectrum 1,074 assaults involving Knives or other cutting instruments.
Maybe you should have stated instead that only 45 Officers were killed in 2003 with a firearms. 34 of those were killed with handguns, and of those 10 were killed with their own weapon. Of those 34 killed none by vest penetration. The 4 officers that were killed by vest penetration were killed by .223 caliber (2), .300, and 7mm caliber rifles. The FN Five-seveN has killed no one.
You also state that the manufacturer advertises that the firearm, "will perforate 48 layers of Kevlar up to 200 meters." That may be true, however this is as advertised to the military and law enforcement while using SS190 armor piercing ammunition. Maybe you should focus on trying to ban the ammunition instead of the gun? Never mind, that ammunition is only available to military and Law enforcement. You see the BATFE has rule for selling ammunition, especially AP ammunition (see Below):
The classification of all ammunition is governed strictly by the definitions presented in the GCA. Specifically, as defined in 18 U.S.C. Section 921(a)(17)(B), the term "armor piercing ammunition" means-
1. a projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun and which is constructed entirely (excluding the presence of traces of other substances) from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper, or depleted uranium; or
2. a full jacketed projectile larger than .22 caliber designed and intended for use in a handgun and whose jacket has a weight of more than 25 percent of the total weight of the projectile.
This type of ammunition is not commercially available. However if you were to purchase this handgun you would be able to buy SS196. This is the only type of ammunition available for commercial sales for this weapon. It uses a Hornady 40gr V-max bullet and leaves the barrel at 2100fps. Interestingly enough this bullet was fired from a FN Five-seveN with a 4 3/4 inch barrel and did not penetrate a Level II vest (by the way most officers like myself wear a level IIIa vest).
You state that this weapon "comes with THREE 20 ROUND MAGAZINES--That is 60 rounds of police body armor piercing ammunition!" Well, no. That means it comes with 3 x 20 round magazines, as for the "police body armor Piercing ammunition(!), well I covered that in the above paragraph.
Also stated is "Because the range and accuracy of this weapon a gunman could easily hold an entire shift of law enforcement officers at bay for hours, making it almost impossible to engage with typical law enforcement service weapons." The accuracy of a weapon is dependant on the trigger puller behind it, not the weapon itself. Most weapons are extremely accurate with the right shooter. I can also tell you I've seen someone with no weapon keep cops at bay for hours just behind a closed door. You don't advocate getting rid of doors do you? An officer with an issue Colt Carbine can easily place rounds on target against someone with one of the FNs. Rifle are inherently more accurate and a more forgiving weapon to shoot.
Lastly sir, you state, "The Brady Center to Prevent Gun Violence believes there is no place in our society for this weapon." Sir, its time to be honest. The Brady Center believes there in no place in our society for ANY type of firearm. All, I repeat ALL, studies have shown that gun control does not deter crime/gun crimes. Since the U.K. and Australia have banned the ownership of most guns the crime rate has soared. Why is it that gun friendly states have the least amount of Crime? I'll make a deal with you. I won't try and take away your constitutional 1st amendment rights to print and distribute your safety alerts full of half-truths and omissions, and you don't mess with my 2nd amendment right to own any type of gun I want. Is it a deal?
sincerely,
Adam Frost
Phoenix Police Dept.
Tuesday, February 01, 2005
Civie P90 exists! (More Pix)
FN Semi P90 & F2000 (pix)
At the Shot Show , FN did not have these on display but I was invited into their conference room and suddenly, in my hands, was the new civilian P90:
And F2000:
And as if that was not enough the rep told me they will be coming out with a semi version of the SCAR.
The P90 & F2000 should be out by fall and there is no date for the SCAR.
Last edited by HKrazy : January 29th, 2005 at 03:26 PM.
At the Shot Show , FN did not have these on display but I was invited into their conference room and suddenly, in my hands, was the new civilian P90:
And F2000:
And as if that was not enough the rep told me they will be coming out with a semi version of the SCAR.
The P90 & F2000 should be out by fall and there is no date for the SCAR.
Last edited by HKrazy : January 29th, 2005 at 03:26 PM.
Civie P90 exists!
I do believe my credit card and bank account will suffer for a long time to come...
[Ed - update 12/27/2006 : that prediction was absolutely true...]
Thursday, January 27, 2005
Clymer Chamber Reamer Dimensions
Reamer #304 Gun Type: Rifle Reamer Type: Rimless Caliber: 5.7x28 A:0.4370 C:0.3140 D:0.3100 E:0.2530 F:0.2530 G:0.2210 H:0.2165 K:1.1430 L:0.7680 M:0.1950 N:0.0250 O:0.1390 Q:35 deg. R:1 deg.
Reamer #298 Gun Type: Rifle Reamer Type: Rimless Caliber: 5.7x28mm FN P90 ( Belgium ) A:0.4370 C:0.3170 D:0.3150 E:0.2540 F:0.2540 G:0.2250 H:0.2180 K:1.1500 L:0.7590 M:0.1975 O:0.1500 Q:35 deg. R:1 1/2 deg.
Gun Type: Rifle
Reamer Type: Rimless
Caliber: 5.7x28mm FN P90 ( Belgium )
0.4370 A Shank
0.3170 C Base Diameter
0.3150 D Shoulder Diameter
0.2540 E Neck-1
0.2540 F Neck-2/Case Mouth
0.2250 G Freebore Diameter
0.2180 H Pilot Diameter
1.1500 K Min. Chamber Length/Base-to-Case Mouth
0.7590 L Base-to-Shoulder
0.1975 M Neck Length
0.1500 O Rim/Belt Thickness
35 deg. Q Shoulder Angle
1 1/2 deg. R Throat
Gun Type: Rifle
Reamer Type: Rimless
Caliber: 5.7x28
0.4370 A Shank
0.3140 C Base Diameter
0.3100 D Shoulder Diameter
0.2530 E Neck-1
0.2530 F Neck-2/Case Mouth
0.2210 G Freebore Diameter
0.2165 H Pilot Diameter
1.1430 K Min. Chamber Length/Base-to-Case Mouth
0.7680 L Base-to-Shoulder
0.1950 M Neck Length
0.0250 N Freebore Length
0.1390 O Rim/Belt Thickness
35 deg. Q Shoulder Angle
1 deg. R Throat
Reamer #298 Gun Type: Rifle Reamer Type: Rimless Caliber: 5.7x28mm FN P90 ( Belgium ) A:0.4370 C:0.3170 D:0.3150 E:0.2540 F:0.2540 G:0.2250 H:0.2180 K:1.1500 L:0.7590 M:0.1975 O:0.1500 Q:35 deg. R:1 1/2 deg.
Gun Type: Rifle
Reamer Type: Rimless
Caliber: 5.7x28mm FN P90 ( Belgium )
0.4370 A Shank
0.3170 C Base Diameter
0.3150 D Shoulder Diameter
0.2540 E Neck-1
0.2540 F Neck-2/Case Mouth
0.2250 G Freebore Diameter
0.2180 H Pilot Diameter
1.1500 K Min. Chamber Length/Base-to-Case Mouth
0.7590 L Base-to-Shoulder
0.1975 M Neck Length
0.1500 O Rim/Belt Thickness
35 deg. Q Shoulder Angle
1 1/2 deg. R Throat
Gun Type: Rifle
Reamer Type: Rimless
Caliber: 5.7x28
0.4370 A Shank
0.3140 C Base Diameter
0.3100 D Shoulder Diameter
0.2530 E Neck-1
0.2530 F Neck-2/Case Mouth
0.2210 G Freebore Diameter
0.2165 H Pilot Diameter
1.1430 K Min. Chamber Length/Base-to-Case Mouth
0.7680 L Base-to-Shoulder
0.1950 M Neck Length
0.0250 N Freebore Length
0.1390 O Rim/Belt Thickness
35 deg. Q Shoulder Angle
1 deg. R Throat
Wednesday, January 26, 2005
FNH USA's website under construction
[SPG - editor's note: A sign of change?]
/// /// /// Website Under Construction /// /// ///
We are sorry for any inconvenience this may cause. Please feel free to contact our offices:
Commercial & Law Enforcement Sales
P.O. Box 697
McLean, VA 22101
(703) 288-1292
Military Sales
P.O. Box 869
McLean, VA 22101
(703) 288-3500
/// /// /// Website Under Construction /// /// ///
We are sorry for any inconvenience this may cause. Please feel free to contact our offices:
Commercial & Law Enforcement Sales
P.O. Box 697
McLean, VA 22101
(703) 288-1292
Military Sales
P.O. Box 869
McLean, VA 22101
(703) 288-3500
BATF Postition on Military Configurations (April 1998)
Exhibit 5
MILITARY CONFIGURATION
1. Ability to accept a detachable magazine. Virtually all modern military firearms are designed to accept large, detachable magazines. This provides the soldier with a fairly large ammunition supply and the ability to rapidly reload. Thus, large capacity magazines are indicative of military firearms. While detachable magazines are not limited to military firearms, most traditional semiautomatic sporting firearms, designed to accommodate a detachable magazine, have a relatively small magazine capacity. Additionally, some States
have a limit on the magazine capacity allowed for hunting, usually five or six rounds.
2. Folding/telescoping stock. Many military firearms incorporate folding or telescoping stocks. The main advantage of this item is portability, especially for airborne troops. These stocks allow the firearm to be fired from the folded position, yet it cannot be fired nearly as accurately as with an open stock. With respect to possible sporting uses of this feature, the folding stock makes it easier to carry the firearm when hiking or backpacking. However, its predominant advantage is for military purposes, and it is normally not found on the traditional sporting rifle.
3. Pistol grips. The vast majority of military firearms employ a well-defined separate pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon. In most cases, the “straight line design” of the military weapon dictates a grip of this type so that the shooter can hold and fire the weapon. Further, a pistol grip can be an aid in one-handed firing of the weapon in a combat situation. Further, such grips were designed to assist in controlling
machineguns during automatic fire. On the other hand, the vast majority of sporting firearms employ a more traditional pistol grip built into the wrist of the stock of the firearm since one-handed shooting is not usually employed in hunting or organized competitive target competitions.
4. Ability to accept a bayonet. A bayonet has distinct military purposes. First, it has a psychological effect on the enemy. Second, it enables soldiers to fight in close quarters with a knife attached to their rifles. No traditional sporting use could be identified for a bayonet.
5. Flash suppressor. A flash suppressor generally serves one or two functions. First, in military firearms it disperses the muzzle flash when the firearm is fired to help conceal the shooter’s position, especially at night. A second purpose of some flash suppressors is to assist in controlling the "muzzle climb" of the rifle, particularly when fired as a fully automatic weapon. From the standpoint of a traditional sporting firearm, there is no particular benefit in suppressing muzzle flash. Flash suppressors that also serve to dampen muzzle climb have a limited benefit in sporting uses by allowing the shooter to reacquire the target for a second shot. However, the barrel of a sporting rifle can be modified by "magna-porting" to achieve the same result. There are also muzzle attachments for sporting firearms to assist in the reduction of muzzle climb. In the case of military-style weapons that have flash suppressors incorporated in their design, the mere removal of the flash suppressor may have an adverse impact on the accuracy of the firearm.
6. Bipods. The majority of military firearms have bipods as an integral part of the firearm or contain specific mounting points to which bipods may be attached. The military utility of the bipod is primarily to provide stability and support for the weapon when fired from the prone position, especially when fired as a fully automatic weapon. Bipods are available accessory items for sporting rifles and are used primarily in long-range shooting to enhance stability. However, traditional sporting rifles generally do not come equipped with bipods, nor are they specifically designed to accommodate them. Instead, bipods for sporting firearms are generally designed to attach to a detachable “slingswivel mount” or simply clamp onto the firearm.
7. Grenade launcher. Grenade launchers are incorporated in the majority of military firearms as a device to facilitate the launching of explosive grenades. Such launchers are generally of two types. The first type is a flash suppressor designed to function as a grenade launcher. The second type attaches to the barrel of the rifle by either screws or clamps. No traditional sporting application could be identified for a grenade launcher.
8. Night sights. Many military firearms are equipped with luminous sights to facilitate sight alignment and target acquisition in poor light or darkness. Their uses are generally for military and law enforcement purposes and are not usually found on sporting firearms since it is generally not legal to hunt at night.
MILITARY CONFIGURATION
1. Ability to accept a detachable magazine. Virtually all modern military firearms are designed to accept large, detachable magazines. This provides the soldier with a fairly large ammunition supply and the ability to rapidly reload. Thus, large capacity magazines are indicative of military firearms. While detachable magazines are not limited to military firearms, most traditional semiautomatic sporting firearms, designed to accommodate a detachable magazine, have a relatively small magazine capacity. Additionally, some States
have a limit on the magazine capacity allowed for hunting, usually five or six rounds.
2. Folding/telescoping stock. Many military firearms incorporate folding or telescoping stocks. The main advantage of this item is portability, especially for airborne troops. These stocks allow the firearm to be fired from the folded position, yet it cannot be fired nearly as accurately as with an open stock. With respect to possible sporting uses of this feature, the folding stock makes it easier to carry the firearm when hiking or backpacking. However, its predominant advantage is for military purposes, and it is normally not found on the traditional sporting rifle.
3. Pistol grips. The vast majority of military firearms employ a well-defined separate pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon. In most cases, the “straight line design” of the military weapon dictates a grip of this type so that the shooter can hold and fire the weapon. Further, a pistol grip can be an aid in one-handed firing of the weapon in a combat situation. Further, such grips were designed to assist in controlling
machineguns during automatic fire. On the other hand, the vast majority of sporting firearms employ a more traditional pistol grip built into the wrist of the stock of the firearm since one-handed shooting is not usually employed in hunting or organized competitive target competitions.
4. Ability to accept a bayonet. A bayonet has distinct military purposes. First, it has a psychological effect on the enemy. Second, it enables soldiers to fight in close quarters with a knife attached to their rifles. No traditional sporting use could be identified for a bayonet.
5. Flash suppressor. A flash suppressor generally serves one or two functions. First, in military firearms it disperses the muzzle flash when the firearm is fired to help conceal the shooter’s position, especially at night. A second purpose of some flash suppressors is to assist in controlling the "muzzle climb" of the rifle, particularly when fired as a fully automatic weapon. From the standpoint of a traditional sporting firearm, there is no particular benefit in suppressing muzzle flash. Flash suppressors that also serve to dampen muzzle climb have a limited benefit in sporting uses by allowing the shooter to reacquire the target for a second shot. However, the barrel of a sporting rifle can be modified by "magna-porting" to achieve the same result. There are also muzzle attachments for sporting firearms to assist in the reduction of muzzle climb. In the case of military-style weapons that have flash suppressors incorporated in their design, the mere removal of the flash suppressor may have an adverse impact on the accuracy of the firearm.
6. Bipods. The majority of military firearms have bipods as an integral part of the firearm or contain specific mounting points to which bipods may be attached. The military utility of the bipod is primarily to provide stability and support for the weapon when fired from the prone position, especially when fired as a fully automatic weapon. Bipods are available accessory items for sporting rifles and are used primarily in long-range shooting to enhance stability. However, traditional sporting rifles generally do not come equipped with bipods, nor are they specifically designed to accommodate them. Instead, bipods for sporting firearms are generally designed to attach to a detachable “slingswivel mount” or simply clamp onto the firearm.
7. Grenade launcher. Grenade launchers are incorporated in the majority of military firearms as a device to facilitate the launching of explosive grenades. Such launchers are generally of two types. The first type is a flash suppressor designed to function as a grenade launcher. The second type attaches to the barrel of the rifle by either screws or clamps. No traditional sporting application could be identified for a grenade launcher.
8. Night sights. Many military firearms are equipped with luminous sights to facilitate sight alignment and target acquisition in poor light or darkness. Their uses are generally for military and law enforcement purposes and are not usually found on sporting firearms since it is generally not legal to hunt at night.
Tuesday, January 25, 2005
Axel Raven suppy of FN Five-seveN Threaded Barrels
Axel Raven wrote:
Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 11:49:38 -0800 (PST)
From: Axel Raven
Subject: Re: FN Five-seveN threaded barrel
To: "Me"
they will be her in store at the end of February.
Axel ^_^
"Me"wrote:
Did you ever secure a supply of these?
Best,
--
S
Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 11:49:38 -0800 (PST)
From: Axel Raven
Subject: Re: FN Five-seveN threaded barrel
To: "Me"
they will be her in store at the end of February.
Axel ^_^
"Me"
Did you ever secure a supply of these?
Best,
--
S
National Criminal Justice Reference Service (NCJRS) report on Secure Weapon System (SWS)
The author(s) shown below used Federal funds provided by the U.S.
Department of Justice and prepared the following final report:
Document Title: Secure Weapon System (SWS) Smart Gun
Technology, Phase I: Summary of Findings
Report
Author(s): Jeffrey Rankin
Document No.: 189247
Date Received: July 23, 2001
Award Number: 2000-MU-MU-K005
This report has not been published by the U.S. Department of Justice.
To provide better customer service, NCJRS has made this Federallyfunded
grant final report available electronically in addition to
traditional paper copies.
Opinions or points of view expressed are those
of the author(s) and do not necessarily reflect
the official position or policies of the U.S.
Department of Justice.
Department of Justice and prepared the following final report:
Document Title: Secure Weapon System (SWS) Smart Gun
Technology, Phase I: Summary of Findings
Report
Author(s): Jeffrey Rankin
Document No.: 189247
Date Received: July 23, 2001
Award Number: 2000-MU-MU-K005
This report has not been published by the U.S. Department of Justice.
To provide better customer service, NCJRS has made this Federallyfunded
grant final report available electronically in addition to
traditional paper copies.
Opinions or points of view expressed are those
of the author(s) and do not necessarily reflect
the official position or policies of the U.S.
Department of Justice.
Monday, January 24, 2005
Extended barrel for FN 5.7 (Posted By: Claude Raines Date: 10/19/04 19:24)
The standard factory mfg extended barrel for the 5.7 has a metric thread that measures up at M10 x 1.0 RH. I currently have two of them for both of my pitols ( 1 x Tool Room Prototype with a three digit serial # and 1 x full production version with a ten digit number)
I don't think that FN makes a barrel with the 1/2 x 28 TPI thread.
As far as it goes I think it would be a job for a barrel maker but it would be an absolute nightmare to make due to the barrel design.
My suggestion would be to buy a threaded barrel from an FN dealer and fit it up with an adapter to suit the can.
The only other problem I can see you having is getting function with a can.
They only like relatively light weight cans.
I don't think that FN makes a barrel with the 1/2 x 28 TPI thread.
As far as it goes I think it would be a job for a barrel maker but it would be an absolute nightmare to make due to the barrel design.
My suggestion would be to buy a threaded barrel from an FN dealer and fit it up with an adapter to suit the can.
The only other problem I can see you having is getting function with a can.
They only like relatively light weight cans.
Thursday, January 20, 2005
Re: 5.7X28
Built the 17 version on a AR15 It aint cute but it's lots of fun! 10.5 grains of VV120 and a 18 grain berger at around 3600fps will light up a jackrabbit . Later! Mark.
17 VLD !! here are some of the 4.4x28 velocities
Matt , here are some of the velocities on the 4.4x28 . 22gr berger 10.4 gr of H4198= vel 3101 , 29gr kindler 10.4gr of H4198 = vel 2988, 20gr Berger MEF 10gr of VV120 = vel 3349 , 22.5 Genco LTFB 10.4 gr of H4198 = 2986 . I shot these out of my 19.5 inch barrel on my custom AR 15 . The 22gr bergers shot the best group . I wish I had some VV133 to try out . I will post some pics tonight, if I could get a little posting advise from some of the board members ! Thanks! Mark.
Gave the 4.4x28 a workout today!
Posted by: Mark D 10/23/2004, 22:44:46
I finaly got out to do some shooting today . Been reloading and not getting to shoot much . I grabbed my 4.4x28 in AR15 and about 80 rounds of ammo , some 20grMEF bergers and some 29 gr Kindlers . The loads were 10 grains of VV120 with the 20 gr bergers and 10 grains of H4198 with the 29 gr Kindlers , sorry I have not Chronographed these loads yet but expansion was great on the PD's and cottontails I shot today. The wind died down to nothing today and made long shots fun , most were 150 to 225 yards . This PD town has lots of mesquite trees and the PD's have kinda built there town in and around them making it hard to get really long shots . Also I did most of my shooting out of the cab of my truck , Off the mirror , if you know what I mean . I really like these small calibers , you get to see your hits though the scope and you don't need hearing protection on most of them .Thanks! Mark.
I finaly got out to do some shooting today . Been reloading and not getting to shoot much . I grabbed my 4.4x28 in AR15 and about 80 rounds of ammo , some 20grMEF bergers and some 29 gr Kindlers . The loads were 10 grains of VV120 with the 20 gr bergers and 10 grains of H4198 with the 29 gr Kindlers , sorry I have not Chronographed these loads yet but expansion was great on the PD's and cottontails I shot today. The wind died down to nothing today and made long shots fun , most were 150 to 225 yards . This PD town has lots of mesquite trees and the PD's have kinda built there town in and around them making it hard to get really long shots . Also I did most of my shooting out of the cab of my truck , Off the mirror , if you know what I mean . I really like these small calibers , you get to see your hits though the scope and you don't need hearing protection on most of them .Thanks! Mark.
OFFICIAL BATF Classification of Five-seveN and 5.7x28mm Ammunition
FN 5.7 (Fabrique Nationale) pistol is a semiautomatic pistol in 5.7 X 28 mm caliber
1/20/05
In response to numerous questions that ATF has received regarding the capabilities of the 5.7 X 28mm cartridge, the following technical information is provided.
FTB classified SS196 ammunition as not armor piercing.
The FN 5.7 (Fabrique Nationale) pistol is a semiautomatic pistol in 5.7 X 28 mm caliber.
Type: Double Action Only or Single Action (in Tactical model).
Chambering: 5.7x28mm.
Length: 208 mm
Barrel length: 122.5 mm
Magazine: 20 rounds.
The FN 5.7 (Fabrique Nationale) pistol is a semiautomatic pistol in 5.7 X 28 mm caliber approved for importation as a sporting firearm.
The classification of all ammunition is governed strictly by the definitions presented in the GCA. Specifically, as defined in 18 U.S.C. Section 921(a)(17)(B), the term "armor piercing ammunition" means-
a projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun and which is constructed entirely (excluding the presence of traces of other substances) from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper, or depleted uranium; or
a full jacketed projectile larger than .22 caliber designed and intended for use in a handgun and whose jacket has a weight of more than 25 percent of the total weight of the projectile.
FTB has also examined a 5.7 X 28 mm projectile that FN Herstal has designated the "SS196." The SS196 is loaded with a Hornady 40 grain, jacketed lead bullet. FTB classified SS196 ammunition as not armor piercing ammunition under Federal firearms statutes.
According to FNH USA, FN Herstal tested the SS192 ammunition. SS192 ammunition did not penetrate the Level IIIA vests that were tested. FNH USA states that SS196, Hornady V-Max 40 gr. bullets fired from a 4-3/4 inch barrel did not penetrate the Level II vests that were used in testing.
FNH USA has informed FTB that SS192 is no longer imported for commercial sale to the United States and that commercial sales of 5.7 X 28mm ammunition are restricted to the SS196 (not armor piercing).
FN Herstal 5.7 X 28mm Ammunition
SS190 - Armor piercing (AP)
SS191 - AP Tracer
SS192 - Hollow Point (not AP)
SB193 - AP Subsonic
SS195 - "Green" - lead free hollow point projectile with copper jacket (not AP)SS196 - Sporting round (Hornady 40 gr. V-max, hollow point lead), (not AP)10700004 Blank (not classified as ammunition under Federal law)
10700005 Dummy
[Ed - Some of the ammunition designations don't match other sources, eg. L191, T194]
1/20/05
In response to numerous questions that ATF has received regarding the capabilities of the 5.7 X 28mm cartridge, the following technical information is provided.
FTB classified SS196 ammunition as not armor piercing.
The FN 5.7 (Fabrique Nationale) pistol is a semiautomatic pistol in 5.7 X 28 mm caliber.
Type: Double Action Only or Single Action (in Tactical model).
Chambering: 5.7x28mm.
Length: 208 mm
Barrel length: 122.5 mm
Magazine: 20 rounds.
The FN 5.7 (Fabrique Nationale) pistol is a semiautomatic pistol in 5.7 X 28 mm caliber approved for importation as a sporting firearm.
The classification of all ammunition is governed strictly by the definitions presented in the GCA. Specifically, as defined in 18 U.S.C. Section 921(a)(17)(B), the term "armor piercing ammunition" means-
a projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun and which is constructed entirely (excluding the presence of traces of other substances) from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper, or depleted uranium; or
a full jacketed projectile larger than .22 caliber designed and intended for use in a handgun and whose jacket has a weight of more than 25 percent of the total weight of the projectile.
FTB has also examined a 5.7 X 28 mm projectile that FN Herstal has designated the "SS196." The SS196 is loaded with a Hornady 40 grain, jacketed lead bullet. FTB classified SS196 ammunition as not armor piercing ammunition under Federal firearms statutes.
According to FNH USA, FN Herstal tested the SS192 ammunition. SS192 ammunition did not penetrate the Level IIIA vests that were tested. FNH USA states that SS196, Hornady V-Max 40 gr. bullets fired from a 4-3/4 inch barrel did not penetrate the Level II vests that were used in testing.
FNH USA has informed FTB that SS192 is no longer imported for commercial sale to the United States and that commercial sales of 5.7 X 28mm ammunition are restricted to the SS196 (not armor piercing).
FN Herstal 5.7 X 28mm Ammunition
SS190 - Armor piercing (AP)
SS191 - AP Tracer
SS192 - Hollow Point (not AP)
SB193 - AP Subsonic
SS195 - "Green" - lead free hollow point projectile with copper jacket (not AP)SS196 - Sporting round (Hornady 40 gr. V-max, hollow point lead), (not AP)10700004 Blank (not classified as ammunition under Federal law)
10700005 Dummy
[Ed - Some of the ammunition designations don't match other sources, eg. L191, T194]
Friday, January 14, 2005
(Rumor) Civie P90s and 30,000 P90s for Dept of HomeSec
[Ed 12/28/2006 - like most rumors, some of the facts were skewed.]
Just an update, I heard that Dept of HomeSec has ordered about 30000 of P90. They're excellent defense SMG for guarding airports and other high value assets. So you're looking at some delays in civies versions. Nonetheless, these are coming out and there's nothing short of another AWB to stop them. These are made in the US so that's why there's no restriction on them. With any luck FN will be making other stuff here and selling them.
And another:
I got this back from the company that has the mags. Looks like the regular mags wont work in the semi-auto. I guess the new is made specifically for 30 rounds. WHICH SUXS! exact quote:"Just for info FN is not taking orders ans they do not even have a price nor release date for the Semi and they will not use the same mags as the P 90 which are not restrcted.These guys are really jumping the gun on this. The F2000 will probably happen before the P90"
Just an update, I heard that Dept of HomeSec has ordered about 30000 of P90. They're excellent defense SMG for guarding airports and other high value assets. So you're looking at some delays in civies versions. Nonetheless, these are coming out and there's nothing short of another AWB to stop them. These are made in the US so that's why there's no restriction on them. With any luck FN will be making other stuff here and selling them.
And another:
I got this back from the company that has the mags. Looks like the regular mags wont work in the semi-auto. I guess the new is made specifically for 30 rounds. WHICH SUXS! exact quote:"Just for info FN is not taking orders ans they do not even have a price nor release date for the Semi and they will not use the same mags as the P 90 which are not restrcted.These guys are really jumping the gun on this. The F2000 will probably happen before the P90"
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