Confederate Yankee: WNBC News Jumps The Gun: "WNBC News Jumps The Gun"
Yet another opinion piece.
Showing posts with label Other People's Blogs. Show all posts
Showing posts with label Other People's Blogs. Show all posts
Thursday, November 23, 2006
Josh's Weblog: FN 5.7 Pistol
Josh's Weblog: FN 5.7 Pistol: "Josh's WeblogDeja Moo: The feeling that you've heard this bull before.
FN 5.7 Pistol"
Follow the links for yet another perspective...
FN 5.7 Pistol"
Follow the links for yet another perspective...
Wednesday, July 13, 2005
Tuesday, July 05, 2005
Tuesday, June 28, 2005
Tuesday, May 24, 2005
Friday, May 13, 2005
Wednesday, February 02, 2005
FN's New Pistol Sure Has the Bradys Wound Up (blog)
[Ed - See link above for the original article by/at FreedomSight. ]
Say Uncle got the jump on me WRT another press release from the Brady Gun-Ban Bunch in which they caterwaul yet again about the eeeeevvvviiiiillll RN Five-seveN pistol from Fabrique Nationale. Not much to add to what I wrote earlier, but one thing they said is worth noting.
The gun, the Five-SeveN handgun manufactured by FN Herstal of Belgium, is lightweight and easily concealable. It is marketed by the company on its Web site as intended "to defeat the enemy in all close combat situations in urban areas, jungle conditions, night missions and any self defense action. Enemy personnel, even wearing body armor can be effectively engaged up to 200 meters. Kevlar(r) helmets and vests as well as the CRISAT protection will be penetrated."
Yeah, so? Do they have any idea of the vast number of firearms out there which will go through a "bulletproof" vest? The term "bulletproof" is really a misnomer, as it depends on a lot of factors, including bullet construction and velocity. All anybody who wants to defeat typical body armor has to do is get a good centerfire hunting rifle.
I'm not saying that it's a good thing that it's relatively easy to defeat body armor, but rather that it's a completely invalid criterion to use as an argument for banning a particular firearm. It's a non-issue, because there's nothing particularly noteworthy about it, from a technical perspective.
Uncle also points to the ATF Page on the 5.7x28mm cartridge and the Five-seveN pistol. Note there are several types of cartridge available, only two of which are armor-piercing, and, I deduce from the ATF page, only one of which is available for sale in the U.S. to us ordinary civilians. That cartridge is the SS196.
FTB has also examined a 5.7 X 28 mm projectile that FN Herstal has designated the "SS196." The SS196 is loaded with a Hornady 40 grain, jacketed lead bullet. FTB classified SS196 ammunition as not armor piercing ammunition under Federal firearms statutes.
According to FNH USA, FN Herstal tested the SS192 ammunition. SS192 ammunition did not penetrate the Level IIIA vests that were tested. FNH USA states that SS196, Hornady V-Max 40 gr. bullets fired from a 4-3/4 inch barrel did not penetrate the Level II vests that were used in testing. [emphasis mine]
The statements from FN on the capabilities of the 5.7x28mm cartridge are specifically about the SS190 variant of the cartridge, which is, you guessed it, not available to the general public.
But of course, to the Brady Bunch and their ilk, the introduction of any new firearm or cartridge design must seem like an apocalyptic moment, fraught with fear. Why does anybody listen to them?
Say Uncle got the jump on me WRT another press release from the Brady Gun-Ban Bunch in which they caterwaul yet again about the eeeeevvvviiiiillll RN Five-seveN pistol from Fabrique Nationale. Not much to add to what I wrote earlier, but one thing they said is worth noting.
The gun, the Five-SeveN handgun manufactured by FN Herstal of Belgium, is lightweight and easily concealable. It is marketed by the company on its Web site as intended "to defeat the enemy in all close combat situations in urban areas, jungle conditions, night missions and any self defense action. Enemy personnel, even wearing body armor can be effectively engaged up to 200 meters. Kevlar(r) helmets and vests as well as the CRISAT protection will be penetrated."
Yeah, so? Do they have any idea of the vast number of firearms out there which will go through a "bulletproof" vest? The term "bulletproof" is really a misnomer, as it depends on a lot of factors, including bullet construction and velocity. All anybody who wants to defeat typical body armor has to do is get a good centerfire hunting rifle.
I'm not saying that it's a good thing that it's relatively easy to defeat body armor, but rather that it's a completely invalid criterion to use as an argument for banning a particular firearm. It's a non-issue, because there's nothing particularly noteworthy about it, from a technical perspective.
Uncle also points to the ATF Page on the 5.7x28mm cartridge and the Five-seveN pistol. Note there are several types of cartridge available, only two of which are armor-piercing, and, I deduce from the ATF page, only one of which is available for sale in the U.S. to us ordinary civilians. That cartridge is the SS196.
FTB has also examined a 5.7 X 28 mm projectile that FN Herstal has designated the "SS196." The SS196 is loaded with a Hornady 40 grain, jacketed lead bullet. FTB classified SS196 ammunition as not armor piercing ammunition under Federal firearms statutes.
According to FNH USA, FN Herstal tested the SS192 ammunition. SS192 ammunition did not penetrate the Level IIIA vests that were tested. FNH USA states that SS196, Hornady V-Max 40 gr. bullets fired from a 4-3/4 inch barrel did not penetrate the Level II vests that were used in testing. [emphasis mine]
The statements from FN on the capabilities of the 5.7x28mm cartridge are specifically about the SS190 variant of the cartridge, which is, you guessed it, not available to the general public.
But of course, to the Brady Bunch and their ilk, the introduction of any new firearm or cartridge design must seem like an apocalyptic moment, fraught with fear. Why does anybody listen to them?
The sky is still falling (blog)
By SayUncle
In an update to the FN Pistol non-controversy, the Brady Campaign has issued a press release urging congress to ban the gun. Nevermind that the gun isn’t available to the public, the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms notes that the round is not armor piercing.
The anti-gunners always need a bogeyman, even if they must invent it.
Update: Apparently, someone from the Brady Campaign reports that they purchased one which I find odd. The FN page (which is now gone but here’s a google cache) says the pistol is for military and law enforcement only.
[feedback elided]
In an update to the FN Pistol non-controversy, the Brady Campaign has issued a press release urging congress to ban the gun. Nevermind that the gun isn’t available to the public, the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms notes that the round is not armor piercing.
The anti-gunners always need a bogeyman, even if they must invent it.
Update: Apparently, someone from the Brady Campaign reports that they purchased one which I find odd. The FN page (which is now gone but here’s a google cache) says the pistol is for military and law enforcement only.
[feedback elided]
FN 5.7 Pistol (another blog)
FN 5.7 Pistol
According to the ATF, responding to a press release from the Brady Campaign to End Handgun Violence, the “SS196” pistol cartridge for the FN 5.7 pistol is not armor piercing.
First, a gun picture:
Ah, yes, welcome to the plastic fantastic twenty-first century.
Second, the Brady claims:
The gun, the Five-SeveN handgun manufactured by FN Herstal of Belgium, is lightweight and easily concealable. IBPO Legislative Director Steve Lenkhart referred to the Five-Seven as “an assault rifle that fits in your pocket.”
If it was an assault rifle, then it would be fully automatic. The version sold to private citizens is not, of course, as it would be regulated under the National Firearms Act of 1934 and thus unavailable to private citizens, like any fully automatic firearm made after 1968.
It is marketed by the company on its website as intended “to defeat the enemy in all close combat situations in urban areas, jungle conditions, night missions and any self defense action. Enemy personnel, even wearing body armor can be effectively engaged up to 200 meters. Kevlar® helmets and vests as well as the CRISAT protection will be penetrated.”
Well, no, the private citizen version of this pistol is not marketed in this fashion. The law enforcement and military version of this pistol is marketed this way. The Brady Campaign is not sensitive to market segments, however, activism is a global issue.
What does the ATF say?
FTB has also examined a 5.7 X 28 mm projectile that FN Herstal has designated the “SS196.” The SS196 is loaded with a Hornady 40 grain, jacketed lead bullet. FTB classified SS196 ammunition as not armor piercing ammunition under Federal firearms statutes.
According to FNH USA, FN Herstal tested the SS192 ammunition. SS192 ammunition did not penetrate the Level IIIA vests that were tested. FNH USA states that SS196, Hornady V-Max 40 gr. bullets fired from a 4-3/4 inch barrel did not penetrate the Level II vests that were used in testing.
FNH USA has informed FTB that SS192 is no longer imported for commercial sale to the United States and that commercial sales of 5.7 X 28mm ammunition are restricted to the SS196 (not armor piercing).
In my opinion, if you want a hot .22 pistol, there are certainly better choices than this expensive number with its expensive ammunition. Criminals and terrorists don't have a lot of money to spend on this crud when there are easier targets.
But to the Brady Campaign there is no easier target than guns it thinks no one should ever need. If you want to boil a frog, you turn the heat up slowly. They attack the .50 caliber guns and the hot .22s and continue working their way towards the middle, at which point no guns or ammunition would be legal.
If I was going to spend another $900 on a pistol, I'd get another 1911, probably a longslide in 10mm. If I had more than that to spend, I'd be getting a .50 GI. I'm not going to waste my time with a hot .22. There are far better target pistols and there are far better defensive pistols. This gun was targeted at people who like to have guns that look like what the professionals use.
Josh Poulson
According to the ATF, responding to a press release from the Brady Campaign to End Handgun Violence, the “SS196” pistol cartridge for the FN 5.7 pistol is not armor piercing.
First, a gun picture:
Ah, yes, welcome to the plastic fantastic twenty-first century.
Second, the Brady claims:
The gun, the Five-SeveN handgun manufactured by FN Herstal of Belgium, is lightweight and easily concealable. IBPO Legislative Director Steve Lenkhart referred to the Five-Seven as “an assault rifle that fits in your pocket.”
If it was an assault rifle, then it would be fully automatic. The version sold to private citizens is not, of course, as it would be regulated under the National Firearms Act of 1934 and thus unavailable to private citizens, like any fully automatic firearm made after 1968.
It is marketed by the company on its website as intended “to defeat the enemy in all close combat situations in urban areas, jungle conditions, night missions and any self defense action. Enemy personnel, even wearing body armor can be effectively engaged up to 200 meters. Kevlar® helmets and vests as well as the CRISAT protection will be penetrated.”
Well, no, the private citizen version of this pistol is not marketed in this fashion. The law enforcement and military version of this pistol is marketed this way. The Brady Campaign is not sensitive to market segments, however, activism is a global issue.
What does the ATF say?
FTB has also examined a 5.7 X 28 mm projectile that FN Herstal has designated the “SS196.” The SS196 is loaded with a Hornady 40 grain, jacketed lead bullet. FTB classified SS196 ammunition as not armor piercing ammunition under Federal firearms statutes.
According to FNH USA, FN Herstal tested the SS192 ammunition. SS192 ammunition did not penetrate the Level IIIA vests that were tested. FNH USA states that SS196, Hornady V-Max 40 gr. bullets fired from a 4-3/4 inch barrel did not penetrate the Level II vests that were used in testing.
FNH USA has informed FTB that SS192 is no longer imported for commercial sale to the United States and that commercial sales of 5.7 X 28mm ammunition are restricted to the SS196 (not armor piercing).
In my opinion, if you want a hot .22 pistol, there are certainly better choices than this expensive number with its expensive ammunition. Criminals and terrorists don't have a lot of money to spend on this crud when there are easier targets.
But to the Brady Campaign there is no easier target than guns it thinks no one should ever need. If you want to boil a frog, you turn the heat up slowly. They attack the .50 caliber guns and the hot .22s and continue working their way towards the middle, at which point no guns or ammunition would be legal.
If I was going to spend another $900 on a pistol, I'd get another 1911, probably a longslide in 10mm. If I had more than that to spend, I'd be getting a .50 GI. I'm not going to waste my time with a hot .22. There are far better target pistols and there are far better defensive pistols. This gun was targeted at people who like to have guns that look like what the professionals use.
Josh Poulson
The FN FiveSeven being called a "Cop Killer" gun by the Brady gun nuts...
Here's an interesting FACT FILLED letter written by a police officer and sent to the Brady people:
Mr. Shanks,
I'm writing in reference to the Law Enforcement Officers Safety Alert titled, "Cop Killer Gun Available to the Public." I appreciate your concerns for my safety, for I am a police officer with the City of Phoenix, Arizona. However I feel I need to point out some inaccuracies in your news bulletin.
You state that, "In 2003, there were 1,866 officers assaulted in the United States with firearms." That is true, however it's very disingenuous to not continue on to say that this represents only 3% of all assaults on officers (2003 UCR). You will see this is a very small number when compared to the 46,842 assaults involving personal weapons (feet, fists, etc.), 8,059 involving other dangerous weapons (bats, clubs, etc...), and rounding out the bottom of the spectrum 1,074 assaults involving Knives or other cutting instruments.
Maybe you should have stated instead that only 45 Officers were killed in 2003 with a firearms. 34 of those were killed with handguns, and of those 10 were killed with their own weapon. Of those 34 killed none by vest penetration. The 4 officers that were killed by vest penetration were killed by .223 caliber (2), .300, and 7mm caliber rifles. The FN Five-seveN has killed no one.
You also state that the manufacturer advertises that the firearm, "will perforate 48 layers of Kevlar up to 200 meters." That may be true, however this is as advertised to the military and law enforcement while using SS190 armor piercing ammunition. Maybe you should focus on trying to ban the ammunition instead of the gun? Never mind, that ammunition is only available to military and Law enforcement. You see the BATFE has rule for selling ammunition, especially AP ammunition (see Below):
The classification of all ammunition is governed strictly by the definitions presented in the GCA. Specifically, as defined in 18 U.S.C. Section 921(a)(17)(B), the term "armor piercing ammunition" means-
1. a projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun and which is constructed entirely (excluding the presence of traces of other substances) from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper, or depleted uranium; or
2. a full jacketed projectile larger than .22 caliber designed and intended for use in a handgun and whose jacket has a weight of more than 25 percent of the total weight of the projectile.
This type of ammunition is not commercially available. However if you were to purchase this handgun you would be able to buy SS196. This is the only type of ammunition available for commercial sales for this weapon. It uses a Hornady 40gr V-max bullet and leaves the barrel at 2100fps. Interestingly enough this bullet was fired from a FN Five-seveN with a 4 3/4 inch barrel and did not penetrate a Level II vest (by the way most officers like myself wear a level IIIa vest).
You state that this weapon "comes with THREE 20 ROUND MAGAZINES--That is 60 rounds of police body armor piercing ammunition!" Well, no. That means it comes with 3 x 20 round magazines, as for the "police body armor Piercing ammunition(!), well I covered that in the above paragraph.
Also stated is "Because the range and accuracy of this weapon a gunman could easily hold an entire shift of law enforcement officers at bay for hours, making it almost impossible to engage with typical law enforcement service weapons." The accuracy of a weapon is dependant on the trigger puller behind it, not the weapon itself. Most weapons are extremely accurate with the right shooter. I can also tell you I've seen someone with no weapon keep cops at bay for hours just behind a closed door. You don't advocate getting rid of doors do you? An officer with an issue Colt Carbine can easily place rounds on target against someone with one of the FNs. Rifle are inherently more accurate and a more forgiving weapon to shoot.
Lastly sir, you state, "The Brady Center to Prevent Gun Violence believes there is no place in our society for this weapon." Sir, its time to be honest. The Brady Center believes there in no place in our society for ANY type of firearm. All, I repeat ALL, studies have shown that gun control does not deter crime/gun crimes. Since the U.K. and Australia have banned the ownership of most guns the crime rate has soared. Why is it that gun friendly states have the least amount of Crime? I'll make a deal with you. I won't try and take away your constitutional 1st amendment rights to print and distribute your safety alerts full of half-truths and omissions, and you don't mess with my 2nd amendment right to own any type of gun I want. Is it a deal?
sincerely,
Adam Frost
Phoenix Police Dept.
Mr. Shanks,
I'm writing in reference to the Law Enforcement Officers Safety Alert titled, "Cop Killer Gun Available to the Public." I appreciate your concerns for my safety, for I am a police officer with the City of Phoenix, Arizona. However I feel I need to point out some inaccuracies in your news bulletin.
You state that, "In 2003, there were 1,866 officers assaulted in the United States with firearms." That is true, however it's very disingenuous to not continue on to say that this represents only 3% of all assaults on officers (2003 UCR). You will see this is a very small number when compared to the 46,842 assaults involving personal weapons (feet, fists, etc.), 8,059 involving other dangerous weapons (bats, clubs, etc...), and rounding out the bottom of the spectrum 1,074 assaults involving Knives or other cutting instruments.
Maybe you should have stated instead that only 45 Officers were killed in 2003 with a firearms. 34 of those were killed with handguns, and of those 10 were killed with their own weapon. Of those 34 killed none by vest penetration. The 4 officers that were killed by vest penetration were killed by .223 caliber (2), .300, and 7mm caliber rifles. The FN Five-seveN has killed no one.
You also state that the manufacturer advertises that the firearm, "will perforate 48 layers of Kevlar up to 200 meters." That may be true, however this is as advertised to the military and law enforcement while using SS190 armor piercing ammunition. Maybe you should focus on trying to ban the ammunition instead of the gun? Never mind, that ammunition is only available to military and Law enforcement. You see the BATFE has rule for selling ammunition, especially AP ammunition (see Below):
The classification of all ammunition is governed strictly by the definitions presented in the GCA. Specifically, as defined in 18 U.S.C. Section 921(a)(17)(B), the term "armor piercing ammunition" means-
1. a projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun and which is constructed entirely (excluding the presence of traces of other substances) from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper, or depleted uranium; or
2. a full jacketed projectile larger than .22 caliber designed and intended for use in a handgun and whose jacket has a weight of more than 25 percent of the total weight of the projectile.
This type of ammunition is not commercially available. However if you were to purchase this handgun you would be able to buy SS196. This is the only type of ammunition available for commercial sales for this weapon. It uses a Hornady 40gr V-max bullet and leaves the barrel at 2100fps. Interestingly enough this bullet was fired from a FN Five-seveN with a 4 3/4 inch barrel and did not penetrate a Level II vest (by the way most officers like myself wear a level IIIa vest).
You state that this weapon "comes with THREE 20 ROUND MAGAZINES--That is 60 rounds of police body armor piercing ammunition!" Well, no. That means it comes with 3 x 20 round magazines, as for the "police body armor Piercing ammunition(!), well I covered that in the above paragraph.
Also stated is "Because the range and accuracy of this weapon a gunman could easily hold an entire shift of law enforcement officers at bay for hours, making it almost impossible to engage with typical law enforcement service weapons." The accuracy of a weapon is dependant on the trigger puller behind it, not the weapon itself. Most weapons are extremely accurate with the right shooter. I can also tell you I've seen someone with no weapon keep cops at bay for hours just behind a closed door. You don't advocate getting rid of doors do you? An officer with an issue Colt Carbine can easily place rounds on target against someone with one of the FNs. Rifle are inherently more accurate and a more forgiving weapon to shoot.
Lastly sir, you state, "The Brady Center to Prevent Gun Violence believes there is no place in our society for this weapon." Sir, its time to be honest. The Brady Center believes there in no place in our society for ANY type of firearm. All, I repeat ALL, studies have shown that gun control does not deter crime/gun crimes. Since the U.K. and Australia have banned the ownership of most guns the crime rate has soared. Why is it that gun friendly states have the least amount of Crime? I'll make a deal with you. I won't try and take away your constitutional 1st amendment rights to print and distribute your safety alerts full of half-truths and omissions, and you don't mess with my 2nd amendment right to own any type of gun I want. Is it a deal?
sincerely,
Adam Frost
Phoenix Police Dept.
Friday, December 03, 2004
(Rumors) Civilian P90 (1Q 2005?)
”There's still no way to legally hang a FN P90TR over your fireplace mantle, correct?”
Possibly soon. FN/Herstal is making a semi-auto version that will mainly be marketed to Law Enforcement in states where machineguns are not allowed, (again DE, HI, IA, IL, KS, NY, RI and WA). Odds are it will also show up in the civilian market - they said they would never sell the FN FiveSeven to civilians, uses the same round as the P90, but I now own one. Look for a civilian P90 next year after February’s SHOT show in Vegas.
Of course if you’re just looking for a mantle piece there’s always airsoft
"I had heard that the BATF has a huge bug up their collective ass regarding 5.7x28mm ammo in general."
The ammo was never illegal. It just wasn’t sold to anyone but Military/Law Enforcement. They are now selling the jacketed hollow point ammo to the civilian market for use in the FiveSeven pistol. Now if they started selling the full metal jacket ammo to the general public the BATF might step in.
/gunfondling
posted by Tenuki at 4:38 AM PST on November 22
Possibly soon. FN/Herstal is making a semi-auto version that will mainly be marketed to Law Enforcement in states where machineguns are not allowed, (again DE, HI, IA, IL, KS, NY, RI and WA). Odds are it will also show up in the civilian market - they said they would never sell the FN FiveSeven to civilians, uses the same round as the P90, but I now own one. Look for a civilian P90 next year after February’s SHOT show in Vegas.
Of course if you’re just looking for a mantle piece there’s always airsoft
"I had heard that the BATF has a huge bug up their collective ass regarding 5.7x28mm ammo in general."
The ammo was never illegal. It just wasn’t sold to anyone but Military/Law Enforcement. They are now selling the jacketed hollow point ammo to the civilian market for use in the FiveSeven pistol. Now if they started selling the full metal jacket ammo to the general public the BATF might step in.
/gunfondling
posted by Tenuki at 4:38 AM PST on November 22
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