Tuesday, May 26, 2009
6" AR57
The AR-57 PDW Upper 6 inch barrel is a direct replacement for your pistol or SBR AR upper (all NFA rules apply). The complete assembly installs in seconds and readily accepts the innovated FN 50 round magazine. This revolutionary design instantly provides a decisive advantage for experienced shooters or weekend plinkers. Low recoil, optimum balance and exceptional shooting ability allows accurate hits to 250 yards. A FFL is not required to purchase this item.
Features:
For pistol and SBR applications only: All NFA rules apply
Precision ER Shaw six inch barrel
Up to 50 rounds of 5.7 firepower
Spent brass is expelled through empty magwell
Scope rails on the top and bottom of the rifle and attachment points on the sides
Reliability as a primary feature
Easy maintenance, no gas system
Important information you need to know before placing an order. This AR-57 six inch upper is available in the following configurations:
Threaded 10 x 1 mm to fit Gemtech FN 5.7 suppressor
Threaded 1/2 x 28 to fit 22 or 9mm suppressor maximum diameter 1.25 inch
This AR-57 six inch upper CAN NOT be used without a six inch minimum length suppressor or six inch barrel extension.
Suppressor and/or extension are NOT supplied and must be purchased separately.
Standard aluminum .22 suppressors will NOT handle the heat and pressure produced by the 5.7 cartridge.
Verify this application with your suppressor manufacture before purchasing.
Features:
For pistol and SBR applications only: All NFA rules apply
Precision ER Shaw six inch barrel
Up to 50 rounds of 5.7 firepower
Spent brass is expelled through empty magwell
Scope rails on the top and bottom of the rifle and attachment points on the sides
Reliability as a primary feature
Easy maintenance, no gas system
Important information you need to know before placing an order. This AR-57 six inch upper is available in the following configurations:
Threaded 10 x 1 mm to fit Gemtech FN 5.7 suppressor
Threaded 1/2 x 28 to fit 22 or 9mm suppressor maximum diameter 1.25 inch
This AR-57 six inch upper CAN NOT be used without a six inch minimum length suppressor or six inch barrel extension.
Suppressor and/or extension are NOT supplied and must be purchased separately.
Standard aluminum .22 suppressors will NOT handle the heat and pressure produced by the 5.7 cartridge.
Verify this application with your suppressor manufacture before purchasing.
Thursday, May 21, 2009
Ammo Stats according to MO
FiveseveN Pistol P90 PS90
27 grain Aluminum core HP "Ultra RapTOR"
2,600fps - 391 FtLbs 3,053fps - 560 FtLbs 3,340 fps - 666 FtLbs
40 grain lead core "ProtecTOR"
2,092fps - 389 FtLbs 2,538 fps - 572 FtLbs 2,762 fps - 678 FtLbs
36 grain frangible core "VarminTOR"
2,202fps - 388 FtLbs 2,690fps - 574 FtLbs 2,923fps - 683 FtLbs
45 grain Barnes TSX "X-TerminaTOR"
1,975fps - 390 FtLbs 2,380fps - 576 FtLbs 2,585fps - 668 FtLbs
55 grain FMJ "PenetraTOR"
1,800fps - 385 FtLbs 2,150fps - 560 FtLbs 2,300fps - 660 FtLbs
55 grain FMJ tracer "IlluminaTOR"
Same ballistics as above
FN SS195
1,957 fps - 230 FtLbs 2,393 fps - 343 FtLbs 2,647 fps - 420 FtLbs
FN SS197
1,753 fps - 273 FtLbs 2,175 fps - 416 FtLbs 2,399 fps - 511 FtLbs
FN SS190
2050 fps - 261 FtLbs 2,400 fps - 358 FtLbs 2,650 fps - 436 FtLbs
27 grain Aluminum core HP "Ultra RapTOR"
2,600fps - 391 FtLbs 3,053fps - 560 FtLbs 3,340 fps - 666 FtLbs
40 grain lead core "ProtecTOR"
2,092fps - 389 FtLbs 2,538 fps - 572 FtLbs 2,762 fps - 678 FtLbs
36 grain frangible core "VarminTOR"
2,202fps - 388 FtLbs 2,690fps - 574 FtLbs 2,923fps - 683 FtLbs
45 grain Barnes TSX "X-TerminaTOR"
1,975fps - 390 FtLbs 2,380fps - 576 FtLbs 2,585fps - 668 FtLbs
55 grain FMJ "PenetraTOR"
1,800fps - 385 FtLbs 2,150fps - 560 FtLbs 2,300fps - 660 FtLbs
55 grain FMJ tracer "IlluminaTOR"
Same ballistics as above
FN SS195
1,957 fps - 230 FtLbs 2,393 fps - 343 FtLbs 2,647 fps - 420 FtLbs
FN SS197
1,753 fps - 273 FtLbs 2,175 fps - 416 FtLbs 2,399 fps - 511 FtLbs
FN SS190
2050 fps - 261 FtLbs 2,400 fps - 358 FtLbs 2,650 fps - 436 FtLbs
Saturday, April 11, 2009
Monday, April 06, 2009
P90/PS90 Extended Cocking Handle
Not to my taste, but someone might like 'em...
P90/PS90 Extended Cocking Handle. If you own a P90 or PS90 you know that the left & right side cocking handles are on the small side. FSE USA now manufactures an extended and enlarged cocking handle for this rifle. CNC machined from tough Delrin, (read more...)
P90/PS90 Extended Cocking Handle. If you own a P90 or PS90 you know that the left & right side cocking handles are on the small side. FSE USA now manufactures an extended and enlarged cocking handle for this rifle. CNC machined from tough Delrin, (read more...)
Sunday, March 15, 2009
Desert Ammo Supply LLC
Welcome to Desert Ammo Supply, your reliable source for 5.7x28mm specialized ammunition and a variety of other calibers at the best prices. All sales are restricted to individual state and federal laws. Cannot ship to AK, HI or Puerto Rico.
Friday, March 13, 2009
Wednesday, March 11, 2009
HK9 SD Tactical's load tables (based on MO's data)
HK9 SD Tactical's load tables (based on MO's/EA's data)
Tuesday, February 24, 2009
More Barrel Liners
http://www.trackofthewolf.com/(S(erjyugy2aiik0f5520z5y555))/categories/tableList.aspx?catID=14&subID=142&styleID=483
Barrel liners for breech loading rifles & pistols are hammer forged of special Chromium Molybdenum alloy steel, in the U.S.A. Each liner is hammer forged over a special mandrel, producing an extremely smooth and uniform bore of the desired dimensions. We offer these calibers, twist rates, bores, and diameters.
A skilled gunsmith with proper tools can easily install Track's precision liners. Specify the caliber, bore diameter, groove diameter, twist rate, outside diameter, and desired length in inches. We cut liners to your desired length, and ship quickly, typically within 5 to 7 days. Restore your old barrel.
Price is per inch. Specify the exact length, in inches, you require.
Quantity: Part Number: Description: Price:
LINER-22-CEN Liner for .22 centerfire, .219" bore, .224" groove, 1-16" twist, 6 grooves, 1/2" OD, per inch
http://www.assra.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?num=1211426431
TJ's Enterprises
3652 Neltner Rd
Alexandria, KY 41001
(859) 635-5560
http://www.redmansrifling.com/available_liners.htm
Liner Specifications
.22 Rimfire Long Rifle Liner Specifications
Length - 27". Allow approximately 3/4" for trimming.
Outside Diameter - 5/16" (.311" - .312")
Groove Diameter- .223", 1-16" twist
25-20 Liner Specifications
Outside Diameter - Approximately .435"
Groove Diameter - .257"; 1-14" twist
32-20 Liner Specifications
Outside Diameter - Approximately .505"
Groove Diameter - .311"; 1-20" twist
38-40 & 44-40 Liner Specifications
Outside Diameter - Approximately .590"
38-40 Groove Diameter - .400", 1-25" twist
44-40 Groove Diameter - .428", 1-25" twist
17 Caliber Rimfire Liner specifications
Outside Diameter - Approximately .311"
Groove Diameter - .172", 1-9" twist and 1-10" twist
All of the above liners are available through Brownell's Inc. if you are a dealer and would like a quote for a 100 liner minimum, please call us at (509) 826-5512.
We do have longer length liners over the 25" standard, in calibers 25-20, 32-20, 38-40 and 44-40. Please call for prices (509) 826-5512.
https://www.castbulletassoc.org/forum/view_topic.php?id=2887&forum_id=21&print=1
http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php?topic=14143.msg199575
I have relined several rifles, Remington Rolling Blocks and Martini's to 45 Colt, 45-70 and 50-70. The two 45 caliber liners are 5/8" diameter and the 50-70 liners are 11/16" diameter. These diameters leave pleanty of material for chambering. The best way to chamber the liners for these rimmed cartridges is to have the front edge of the rim butt up against the rear of the liner and not worry about chambering for the rim itself.
I epoxy the liners in the drilled out barrels and I have some that have been in for twenty (20) or more years with no sign of loosening. When the liners are chambered in this manner a fired or new case can be used to to set the headspace in the rifle while the epoxy is hardening. You can cut any excess liner off after the epoxy is set and face off the muzzle and the liner or you can cut the liner to length before installation and maintain the original muzzle configuration. Extractor cuts are then cut using the original barrel cuts as a guide. This usually can be done by hand with suitable files.
45-70 liners used to be available from Numerich Arms but I don't think that they handle them any more. Recently I have been buying my liners from T. J.'s Gateway Enterprises, 3652 Neltner Road, Alexandria, KY 41001, 859/635-5560. I have been very pleased with them. They are good shooters and he sells them by the inch so you can get whatever length that you need. A caliber and price list is available if you are interested.
This has extended the useful life of otherwise worn out guns without going to the cost of a rebarrel job and maintains all external barrel markings and sight mounting cuts or holes.
Yes, I chamber the liner before installation. As noted before, I do not chamber the rim portion of the case in the liner and that way you can use an empty cartridge case to set the headspace before the epoxy hardens, being careful not to epoxy the case into the liner. A little release agent (oil or grease) on the case and in the chamber solves this potential problem.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=14791
The Rifle H&R Never Knew They Had ...
H&R Pardner Shotgun - 28ga
TJ's Enterprise 25-35 liner, 1:10 Twist
25-20 WCF Chamber Reamer
H&R 22 Hornet Extractor
Front Globe - Swiss Pin Post
Long Ranger Vernier Rear Sight
Pope Palm Rest
and one has a nice SS Gallery and Range Rifle
the considerations are: The H&R shotgun barrel will have to be the correct size for the caliber liner and the pressure of the final rifle caliber has to be less than that of the shotgun.
The best liners are made by TJ's Enterprise. No website, so call and get the liners available:
TJ's Enterprises
3652 Neltner Rd
Alexandria, KY 41001
(859) 635-5560
Reamer ... your choice of vendor
Extractors ... Numrich, the price is much cheaper than ordering from H&R
Any front globe. I got mine from Jeff's Outfitters
Vernier, your choice dependent on price. Mine was from Dixie Gun Works
Palm rest ... Jeff's Outfitters has 2 styles. I like the Pope.
Optional: Brass casting for a Schuetzen butt plate. I'm looking
Add: Lathe and milling machine, proper cutters, steel sleeves and 4 Minute Epoxy ... That's It!
PS: The 'new' rifle breech locks up like a TANK HATCH!
cost was $389 without the cost of the reamer ... that was free.
Robert, tis true in all respects, except there is a 'gotcha' ... http://www.hr1871.com/Support/accessoryProgram.aspx
H&R doesn't sell barrels outright ... they have to be fitted at the factory.
I could have gone this way - I have the Buffalo Classic with a fitted 38-55 barrel also. But I chose to go this route just to have another 'complete' rifle
PS: Took it to the range today for it's Maiden:
CCI SR Primer
5gr Unique ... for gallery load
Meister 85gr Bullet
0.002 neck tension ...
velocity - 1170fps
25yds - X's and tight 10's
50yds - 1 1/2" group ... our gallery match range (offhand with 25 ring Schuetzen targets)
100yds - tough on this little peanuts at this distance with 11mph wind - 8" group
The original H&R with the same frame and heat treatment as the shotguns was factory chambered for .357 Magnum, .357 Maximum, .44 Magnum, and 30-30.
The newer 'rifle' frame is only needed for 'modern' high intensity rifle cartridges.
All H&R singleshots have a lot of metal around the chamber as they were originally sized for large diameter shotgun cartridges. Also, consider that the above 'pistol' cartridges are only loaded to 36,000 psi and the 30-30 to 40,000 while its head diameter is even small than the .44 Magnum so they both produce almost identical head thrust.
http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showpage?saleitemid=129341&utm_source=froogle&utm_medium=free&utm_campaign=10636
Callahan Barrel Liner 22 Caliber Rimfire 5/16" Outside Diameter 1 in 16" Twist 26" Chrome Moly
This unchambered 22 caliber liner is a good choice for lining a worn out 22 caliber rimfire rifle barrel, helping to get an old rifle out of the safe and back into the field.
Attention!
Please inspect barrels and blanks carefully for manufacturer bleminshes and/or defects before installation. Unfortunately, once installed or fired, we cannot accept returns.
Technical Information
Notes:
This is an unchambered 22 caliber tube used to reline a rimfire barrel
Requires drilling out the barrel and then brazing or otherwise affixing the liner in the barrel (green Loctite, for example, will hold it)
Requires cutting a chamber after installation
Barrel liners for breech loading rifles & pistols are hammer forged of special Chromium Molybdenum alloy steel, in the U.S.A. Each liner is hammer forged over a special mandrel, producing an extremely smooth and uniform bore of the desired dimensions. We offer these calibers, twist rates, bores, and diameters.
A skilled gunsmith with proper tools can easily install Track's precision liners. Specify the caliber, bore diameter, groove diameter, twist rate, outside diameter, and desired length in inches. We cut liners to your desired length, and ship quickly, typically within 5 to 7 days. Restore your old barrel.
Price is per inch. Specify the exact length, in inches, you require.
Quantity: Part Number: Description: Price:
LINER-22-CEN Liner for .22 centerfire, .219" bore, .224" groove, 1-16" twist, 6 grooves, 1/2" OD, per inch
http://www.assra.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?num=1211426431
TJ's Enterprises
3652 Neltner Rd
Alexandria, KY 41001
(859) 635-5560
http://www.redmansrifling.com/available_liners.htm
Liner Specifications
.22 Rimfire Long Rifle Liner Specifications
Length - 27". Allow approximately 3/4" for trimming.
Outside Diameter - 5/16" (.311" - .312")
Groove Diameter- .223", 1-16" twist
25-20 Liner Specifications
Outside Diameter - Approximately .435"
Groove Diameter - .257"; 1-14" twist
32-20 Liner Specifications
Outside Diameter - Approximately .505"
Groove Diameter - .311"; 1-20" twist
38-40 & 44-40 Liner Specifications
Outside Diameter - Approximately .590"
38-40 Groove Diameter - .400", 1-25" twist
44-40 Groove Diameter - .428", 1-25" twist
17 Caliber Rimfire Liner specifications
Outside Diameter - Approximately .311"
Groove Diameter - .172", 1-9" twist and 1-10" twist
All of the above liners are available through Brownell's Inc. if you are a dealer and would like a quote for a 100 liner minimum, please call us at (509) 826-5512.
We do have longer length liners over the 25" standard, in calibers 25-20, 32-20, 38-40 and 44-40. Please call for prices (509) 826-5512.
https://www.castbulletassoc.org/forum/view_topic.php?id=2887&forum_id=21&print=1
http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php?topic=14143.msg199575
I have relined several rifles, Remington Rolling Blocks and Martini's to 45 Colt, 45-70 and 50-70. The two 45 caliber liners are 5/8" diameter and the 50-70 liners are 11/16" diameter. These diameters leave pleanty of material for chambering. The best way to chamber the liners for these rimmed cartridges is to have the front edge of the rim butt up against the rear of the liner and not worry about chambering for the rim itself.
I epoxy the liners in the drilled out barrels and I have some that have been in for twenty (20) or more years with no sign of loosening. When the liners are chambered in this manner a fired or new case can be used to to set the headspace in the rifle while the epoxy is hardening. You can cut any excess liner off after the epoxy is set and face off the muzzle and the liner or you can cut the liner to length before installation and maintain the original muzzle configuration. Extractor cuts are then cut using the original barrel cuts as a guide. This usually can be done by hand with suitable files.
45-70 liners used to be available from Numerich Arms but I don't think that they handle them any more. Recently I have been buying my liners from T. J.'s Gateway Enterprises, 3652 Neltner Road, Alexandria, KY 41001, 859/635-5560. I have been very pleased with them. They are good shooters and he sells them by the inch so you can get whatever length that you need. A caliber and price list is available if you are interested.
This has extended the useful life of otherwise worn out guns without going to the cost of a rebarrel job and maintains all external barrel markings and sight mounting cuts or holes.
Yes, I chamber the liner before installation. As noted before, I do not chamber the rim portion of the case in the liner and that way you can use an empty cartridge case to set the headspace before the epoxy hardens, being careful not to epoxy the case into the liner. A little release agent (oil or grease) on the case and in the chamber solves this potential problem.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=14791
The Rifle H&R Never Knew They Had ...
H&R Pardner Shotgun - 28ga
TJ's Enterprise 25-35 liner, 1:10 Twist
25-20 WCF Chamber Reamer
H&R 22 Hornet Extractor
Front Globe - Swiss Pin Post
Long Ranger Vernier Rear Sight
Pope Palm Rest
and one has a nice SS Gallery and Range Rifle
the considerations are: The H&R shotgun barrel will have to be the correct size for the caliber liner and the pressure of the final rifle caliber has to be less than that of the shotgun.
The best liners are made by TJ's Enterprise. No website, so call and get the liners available:
TJ's Enterprises
3652 Neltner Rd
Alexandria, KY 41001
(859) 635-5560
Reamer ... your choice of vendor
Extractors ... Numrich, the price is much cheaper than ordering from H&R
Any front globe. I got mine from Jeff's Outfitters
Vernier, your choice dependent on price. Mine was from Dixie Gun Works
Palm rest ... Jeff's Outfitters has 2 styles. I like the Pope.
Optional: Brass casting for a Schuetzen butt plate. I'm looking
Add: Lathe and milling machine, proper cutters, steel sleeves and 4 Minute Epoxy ... That's It!
PS: The 'new' rifle breech locks up like a TANK HATCH!
cost was $389 without the cost of the reamer ... that was free.
Robert, tis true in all respects, except there is a 'gotcha' ... http://www.hr1871.com/Support/accessoryProgram.aspx
H&R doesn't sell barrels outright ... they have to be fitted at the factory.
I could have gone this way - I have the Buffalo Classic with a fitted 38-55 barrel also. But I chose to go this route just to have another 'complete' rifle
PS: Took it to the range today for it's Maiden:
CCI SR Primer
5gr Unique ... for gallery load
Meister 85gr Bullet
0.002 neck tension ...
velocity - 1170fps
25yds - X's and tight 10's
50yds - 1 1/2" group ... our gallery match range (offhand with 25 ring Schuetzen targets)
100yds - tough on this little peanuts at this distance with 11mph wind - 8" group
The original H&R with the same frame and heat treatment as the shotguns was factory chambered for .357 Magnum, .357 Maximum, .44 Magnum, and 30-30.
The newer 'rifle' frame is only needed for 'modern' high intensity rifle cartridges.
All H&R singleshots have a lot of metal around the chamber as they were originally sized for large diameter shotgun cartridges. Also, consider that the above 'pistol' cartridges are only loaded to 36,000 psi and the 30-30 to 40,000 while its head diameter is even small than the .44 Magnum so they both produce almost identical head thrust.
http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showpage?saleitemid=129341&utm_source=froogle&utm_medium=free&utm_campaign=10636
Callahan Barrel Liner 22 Caliber Rimfire 5/16" Outside Diameter 1 in 16" Twist 26" Chrome Moly
This unchambered 22 caliber liner is a good choice for lining a worn out 22 caliber rimfire rifle barrel, helping to get an old rifle out of the safe and back into the field.
Attention!
Please inspect barrels and blanks carefully for manufacturer bleminshes and/or defects before installation. Unfortunately, once installed or fired, we cannot accept returns.
Technical Information
Notes:
This is an unchambered 22 caliber tube used to reline a rimfire barrel
Requires drilling out the barrel and then brazing or otherwise affixing the liner in the barrel (green Loctite, for example, will hold it)
Requires cutting a chamber after installation
Friday, February 13, 2009
Another potential source for NEF 5.7x28
For either barrel machining is always the same- $225
For a Green mountain barrel blank $100
Green mountain barrels are full bull and not lapped but tend to shoot very well.
Mcgowan Barrel $185
These are lapped, tend to be a bit tighter, & shoot very well for the price point. I can also get these in most profiles, I have a full bull same profile as the chamber area in stock in 14 twist.
These are stub barrels and you do have to sacrifice a barrel to create it.
The only reason I suggested the Hornet (Regular or K-Hornet) was in either form the balistics are better, dies and brass more plentiful and lots of help available from others allready shooting it. Most gunstores have ammo on the shelf. And its a reamer I allready own.
For a Green mountain barrel blank $100
Green mountain barrels are full bull and not lapped but tend to shoot very well.
Mcgowan Barrel $185
These are lapped, tend to be a bit tighter, & shoot very well for the price point. I can also get these in most profiles, I have a full bull same profile as the chamber area in stock in 14 twist.
These are stub barrels and you do have to sacrifice a barrel to create it.
The only reason I suggested the Hornet (Regular or K-Hornet) was in either form the balistics are better, dies and brass more plentiful and lots of help available from others allready shooting it. Most gunstores have ammo on the shelf. And its a reamer I allready own.
Tuesday, February 03, 2009
Lilja - Custom Deep Hole Drilling
Custom Deep Hole Drilling
We do offer a deephole drilling service for persons and companies needing that type of machining work. Over the years we have drilled and reamed holes for other barrel makers and custom action makers.
There are other industries too that require deep holes. We have drilled holes for customers in the computer, aerospace, oil, and eyeglass industries.
Recently we have been making a lot of smooth bore barrels for customers shooting projectiles at body armor, helmets and eye protection devices. We have tooling for long barrels (up to 45") in .15, .22, .25, and .375 calibers.
If you have a special project or production run of parts requiring a deep hole, please inquire and we'll give you a quote. There are some limitations on material size and the material must be symmetrical in profile.
Longer Barrels?
Here is a picture of a 120" long .25 caliber barrel we made for a research lab. It is four 30" sections coupled together.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Here is a hole we drilled for an experimental long-stroke, small bore diameter cylinder for an R&D project in the oil industry.
Below is a tube for ‘shooting’ ¼” diameter ball bearings at safety glasses for testing.
Long Barrels? Here is a photo of a 90” long barrel we made for a military customer.
This barrel was made from three 30” pieces coupled together.
We do offer a deephole drilling service for persons and companies needing that type of machining work. Over the years we have drilled and reamed holes for other barrel makers and custom action makers.
There are other industries too that require deep holes. We have drilled holes for customers in the computer, aerospace, oil, and eyeglass industries.
Recently we have been making a lot of smooth bore barrels for customers shooting projectiles at body armor, helmets and eye protection devices. We have tooling for long barrels (up to 45") in .15, .22, .25, and .375 calibers.
If you have a special project or production run of parts requiring a deep hole, please inquire and we'll give you a quote. There are some limitations on material size and the material must be symmetrical in profile.
Longer Barrels?
Here is a picture of a 120" long .25 caliber barrel we made for a research lab. It is four 30" sections coupled together.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Here is a hole we drilled for an experimental long-stroke, small bore diameter cylinder for an R&D project in the oil industry.
Below is a tube for ‘shooting’ ¼” diameter ball bearings at safety glasses for testing.
Long Barrels? Here is a photo of a 90” long barrel we made for a military customer.
This barrel was made from three 30” pieces coupled together.
Friday, January 30, 2009
Handloading On A Shoestring
Today a myriad of advanced handloading equipment is available in unprecedented profusion of variety and specialization. Confusion awaits the newcomer to the otherwise simple pursuit of reloading spent cartridge cases. Advanced design presses exist in abundance from all manufacturers, and to examine a comprehensive die-list from any major manufacturer is dizzying to the inexperienced handloader.
Aside from a multitude of seemingly comparable products from which to choose, is the intimidating, if not seemingly insurmountable financial outlay before the prospective handloading newcomer. Reading current monthly firearms and handloading journals serves only to compound the confusion, as the writers penning articles promote only the latest and greatest of gear from the most prestigious manufacturers. As a consequence, the simplicity of handloading becomes lost amid a sea of bigger and more complex equipment costing more with each model change.
Unfortunately, this focus on bigger, better and more advanced equipment dissuades many newcomers to handloading, simply from financial constraints alone. The average prospective handloading neophyte centers his focus upon either cost savings in loaded ammo by rolling his own, or loading specialty rounds that are not commercially available over the counter. In either case, a casual interest in the pursuit of home-grown loads wanes in the face of exorbitant startup expenses of perceived necessities just to begin handloading.
The purpose of this article is two-fold. First to dispel the myth that handloading requires hundreds of dollars worth of equipment and vast expanses of bench-tops and storage space. Secondly, to demonstrate that even given the barest minimum investment, outstanding quality in handloaded ammunition is attainable with the simplest of tools.
While there are many other paths for the beginning handloader to begin the journey in this quest for quality excellence and economy in handloading, few will question the validity or wisdom in choosing the Classic Lee Loader kit as a centerpiece for beginning this journey. These tools have been in continuous production for more than thirty years, in a profusion of caliber choices during that period of time. It has always provided a practical, affordable, compact set of tools capable of turning fired brass into first class loaded ammunition when administered with judicious care and attention to detail.
The classic Lee Loader comes complete for one caliber, neatly contained in a compartmentalized plastic box with all the necessary tools (not including a non-marring hammer), comprehensive instructions and a concise, caliber specific table of loading data. While a casual first glance at these kits may not be impressive, the 1,000 yard world championship record group fired from a rifle, held for many years, was shot using ammunition loaded on one of these compact loading kits!
Moving on down the list of tools and equipment necessary for handloading, the list is pretty short in terms of immediate pure necessities, and as such preserves a fragile budget nicely. I’ll present both the list of equipment used in the preparation of this article, and a bare-bones pure necessity list in the chart below. Too, the actual purchase price of the equipment used in writing this article is listed in the chart, and the itemized tools were purchased over-the-counter in Spokane, Washington on 25 June 2004. Included for reference for both availability and price are three online suppliers and the prices posted on their websites dated 27 June 2004. Those blank places in the chart indicate that the listed item was not available from the supplier listed in the column. There are vast differences in pricing on most handloading equipment, so it does pay to shop around.
Equipment Used In Article (Prices as of June 2004)
Item Description Retail Spokane, WA Graf & Sons FactorySales.com Lock Stock & Barrel
Classic Lee Loader 12.99 15.99 14.95 14.50
Lee Chamfer Tool 1.99 2.69 2.88 2.35
Lee Case Trimmer & Lock Stud 2.99 4.39 3.49 3.75
Lee Case Length Gauge & Shell Holder 2.99 4.39 3.49 3.75
Lee Primer Pocket Cleaner 1.29 1.89 1.89 1.50
Lee Improved Powder Measure Kit 5.99 7.59 6.15
Modern Reloading 2nd Edition 14.99 13.99 27.50 11.75
Hornady One-Shot Case Lube 4.49 6.99 6.25
MTM Case Guard P50 Ammo Box .89 1.49 1.11
Total Cost 48.61 59.41
Bare-Bones Basics
Classic Lee Loader 12.99 15.99 14.95 14.50
Lee Primer Pocket Cleaner 1.29 1.89 1.89 1.50
Lee Improved Powder Measure Kit 5.99 7.59 6.15
Total Cost 20.27 25.47 22.99
Getting the financial aspect of this article aired-out early will dissipate uneasiness over the anticipated bottom line which always seems to loom at the end of every handloading article dealing with various aspects of reloading equipment. As evidenced from the chart above, obtaining everything used in preparation of this presentation costs less than $60 US. Too, if the budget is really strained, getting started may be done for about the cost of fifty factory loaded revolver cartridges!
While the bare-bones list will allow loading fired brass, and produce good loaded ammo, the expanded list offers more loading options and a margin of safety and convenience as well.
The workhorse of this array of tools is the classic Lee Loader, complete for a specific caliber.
In addition to the Lee Loader Kit, are a few more small accessory items, while optional, they can and do make the difference between a simple reload, and a crafted handload. In addition, should a person decide to move beyond the Lee Loader with a full-sized press and conventional dies, these accessories still fill a both useful and necessary niche. These items include a primer-pocket cleaning tool, case trimmer lock-stud and cutter, and case trimmer shell-holder and case-length gauge. A closer look at these accessory items as we come to their application in the handloading process will be presented.
Beginning the reloading process, the first step, after assembling your tools at a suitable workplace, and procuring a solid base for your loading tools is to decap the fired brass. This is accomplished by simply placing the fired brass case into the decapping die, shown below, and using the punch with the small diameter needle-like end, inserting this end into the brass case, through the flash-hole and then rapping lightly with a non-marring hammer on the decapping rod, thus popping the spent primer out of the case. By necessity, the primer must be removed from underneath the decapping base to allow a space for the primer from the next fired case when it too is decapped.
Note the surface used for all steps using the Lee Loader is nothing more than a piece of scrap 2”x 6” lumber placed on the table top. It serves the purpose well, and is both portable, and disposable, as over time the surface becomes quite pock-marked with use of the Lee Loader performing various steps necessary in the reloading process.
Once the fired brass cases are decapped, it becomes necessary to clean them prior to resizing. Cleaning the cases prevents surface grime, powder residue and other abrasive agents from scratching the interior surface of the reloading die. While this seems a trivial step, the purpose is not necessarily to enhance cosmetic appearances of the brass, but to protect the machined surfaces of the resizing die chamber. Simply use some #000 steel wool as shown in the photo below. It only takes a few seconds with a twisting motion to clean the brass of outer grime and residue.
Cleaning the now-empty primer pockets is best done at this stage of the operation as well. This is where one of those “optional accessory items” listed in the chart of tools and expenses really pays off! Cleaning carbon residue from the primer pockets insures uniform primer seating depth, and also mandates a visual inspection of the pocket and at a glance note the flash-hole is clear of any obstructions. Note the difference between the untouched and cleaned primer pockets below.
With both the exterior of the brass and the primer pockets clean, lubing the exterior surfaces of the case is necessary to prevent sticking in the resizing die. While there are a number of excellent products for this purpose, and any of them will suffice nicely, I choose to use Hornady One-Shot spray case lubricant for the purposes of this article. Many other options are available commercially, such as Imperial Sizing Die Wax, RCBS Case Lube, Lee Case Lube as well as home-brewed alternatives varying from dissolved Ivory Soap in water, to glycerin-based mixtures to plain-old kitchen paraffin applied to the brass to prevent sticking cases in the sizing die. Admittedly One-Shot is a somewhat more expensive case lubricant when compared with many of the other options. I simply like the performance, lack of mess and convenience of the Hornady spray product. Whatever option for the task used, at this point the cases must be lubricated prior to sizing.
Once the lube is applied to the deprimed and cleaned cases, they may be resized. The case is inserted into the die, as seen in the photograph below. Note the orientation of the sizing die when the brass is inserted for resizing.
Using a non-marring hammer, drive the case fully into the sizing die, so that the rim of the case is flush with the bottom of the sizing die. Some cartridges/calibers require much more force than others to accomplish this task.
The next step does two functions. First a new primer is seated into the clean primer pocket, and concurrently the case is partially extracted from the resizing die. Before conducting this phase of the operation, it is necessary to consult the reloading data to be used, to determine the correct primer for the selected load. Don’t be mislead, all primers are NOT the same. Many loads are very primer specific. Be sure, and not sorry.
Center a new primer, anvil-up in the priming base (the base with the bullet seating stem coming off the side and a spring loaded base in the center). Then, center the resizing die (containing the resized brass case) over the primer on the priming base. Then, using the long, blunt ended punch, drive the brass out of the sizing die chamber and onto the primer under it. After just a few rounds a “feel” for this process is attained, and the procedure goes quickly and smoothly once a routine is established.
Once the case is successfully primed, remove the sizing die from the priming base, and the case will protrude somewhat out of the die as seen below.
Center the sizing die over the decapping base, and using the blunt-end punch and a sharp rap from a non-marring hammer, eject the now resized and primed brass case from the sizing die body.
Leaving the brass case in the decapping body, use the expanding/flaring plug to expand and slightly flare the case mouth to accept a bullet. Actually very little force is necessary for this step, and light taps of the hammer are all that is needed. Excessive force here will only ruin cases by collapsing them. Don’t overdo a good thing!
Depending upon the cartridge, the number times the brass has been loaded, and the pressure intensity of those loads, the case may, and will stretch in length. This can cause a hazardous condition, and requires trimming brass to a uniform length both for uniformity of the loads, and safety as well. For this purpose the Lee Case Trimmer is included in the list of desirable equipment in the chart at the beginning of this article. The Lee tool greatly simplifies the process, and insures that each and every case is trimmed to a specific uniform length without necessitating the procurement of a costly dial caliper to measure brass. Usually brass only needs trimming every third to fifth reloading, depending upon the cartridge and pressures it generates. Due to the design nature of the Lee Case Trimmer, it must be used before the case is primed. When using the Lee Loader kit, it might be necessary to size the brass, and totally eject it from the sizing die, trim the brass and chamfer it, then prime the brass case in a separate operation, using only the priming base for this purpose.
The Lee Case Trimmer is a four-part tool which gives great flexibility by enabling the user to change caliber/cartridge application with only about a four-dollar investment.
Once the case trimmer is assembled, case trimming is simplicity defined!
Should trimming of cases be necessitated, chamfering the case mouth is also necessary. This step removes any burrs remaining after the case trimmer peels away excessive case-neck length. Too, it puts a slight inside bevel on the brass to facilitate bullet seating.
The tool.
The process.
Now, all our cases are cleaned, resized, trimmed, deburred, primed, expanded and flared, ready for the main event: loading with powder and projectile!
Included with every Lee Loader is a chart of caliber/cartridge specific loading data. This data correlates with the included volumetric powder measure included with the kit, and various combinations of bullets and powder, utilizing that volumetric measure for safe and effective powder charges when combined with the listed bullets.
The simple addition of at least one and preferably two handloading manuals gives a checks-and-balances aspect to your load selection. Too, more loading data is presented which, when combined with the Improved Lee Powder Measure Kit, will open greater variety of loading options to the handloader. Included with the Powder Measure Kit is a powder charge-weight slide-rule, that calibrates a given desired charge weight of selected powder into a volumetric value measured in cubic centimeters. The plastic measures in the Powder Measure Kit are also calibrated in cubic centimeters and thus selecting a desired powder charge is quite simple, match the volume of the measure to the necessary volume of powder to attain the target charge weight.
The Modern Reloading Second Edition manual by Richard Lee found listed in the chart at the beginning of this article, has a vast array of loading data, directly from the powder manufacturers, and organized by Lee into a format that centers around the use of the Lee Improved Powder Measure kit, and has most of the data listed not only in grains of powder by weight, but in volumetric measure in cubic centimeters to directly correlate with the values printed on their powder measures. By using this data, it is a simple matter for the budget-minded handloader to maximize the potential variety afforded by this effective system. Too this manual gives some excellent loading advice, instruction and cautionary information applicable to the novice and experienced handloader alike. It is a well worth-while addition to the basic repertoire of handloading resources, especially to the user of the Lee Loader.
In addition to the Modern Reloading Second Edition by Richard Lee, probably one of the next-best investments to the basic list of equipment is a copy of the Lyman 48th Edition Reloading Manual. The Lyman manual covers virtually all new cartridges while containing a wealth of articles addressing many facets of handloading from the most basic of operations, to fine tuning hunting handloads. The informative articles alone are worth the price of the manual..
Note that the selected load here utilizes a 255 grain lead bullet in the .45 Colt cartridge, and a charge of 6.7 grains of Winchester 231 Powder which should generate close to 835 feet per second out of a revolver. This load specifies a 0.5cc volume powder measure, note the corresponding markings on the measure, and the listing in the loading manual for this load. They match. This load selected from Modern Reloading Second Edition.
Here is the complete Improved Lee Powder Measure Kit. Note the various cc values listed with each measure. This simple kit expands the horizons of the basic Lee Loader in allowing a virtually unlimited selection of powders and bullet weight combinations for any given cartridge.
With the cases carefully prepared, bullet and powder selections determined, and careful double checking of powder charge weight and corresponding powder measure verified, everything is ready for the actual loading process.
Be sure to only have one powder measure out on the reloading bench at a time, and only one type of powder as well. Following this practice will safeguard against a possible mistake in powder charge weights due to a mix-up in powder measures, or a switch in powder types. Either of these errors can, and will mean the difference between a well balanced load that performs to expectations, and a disaster. Be safe, keep only one of each on the bench at any given time.
In the above photo take note of the open can of powder and measure. This is an empty pineapple can, but a tuna can or any other similarly shaped can will suffice for the purposes intended. Be careful of what container is selected, as some plastics generate considerable static electricity, and may possibly cause combustion of the powder contained therein from the static electricity! Play it safe and use a metal container.
Ideally the container used will hold no more than about a quarter-pound of powder at a time, as this amount is very manageable, and should it become somehow contaminated or spilled, it won’t ruin a loading session by spoiling or wasting an entire inventory of powder at once. Too, NEVER SMOKE WHEN HANDLOADING! Take smoke-breaks out of the loading room. This is especially true when dipping powder from an open container.
This brings the discussion to powder dispensing technique. Yes, as mentioned above, dipping is the correct term. The powder measure, or dipper, is pushed straight down into the powder, base first, until gunpowder flows over the edges or rim of the dipper and fills the cavity with powder. Then, once the measure is full it is lifted straight out of the powder container, and leveled off with the edge of a business card with a smooth, fluid sweeping motion. Even veteran handloaders might be surprised at the consistency of dipped powder charges. Using a repeatable consistent technique results in startlingly uniform charges of powder when using nothing more than volumetric powder measures. However, this uniformity is entirely dependent upon proper technique. NEVER, NEVER USE A POWDER DIPPER AS A SCOOP! Scooping these dippers through the powder causes wide variances in powder charge weights.
This article focuses on economical handloading beginnings. For this reason alone the equipment list is as brief as possible, and still provides necessities for loading accurate, safe and reliable ammunition. However, while calibrated powder dippers provide an excellent means of dispensing powder, there is really no substitute for a good quality reloading scale. Besides a second reloading manual, as mentioned earlier, a powder scale should be the next piece of equipment procured in the handloading arsenal of tools. Beyond weighing powder charges a scale serves other useful purposes, such as weighing bullets, cases, determining case capacity in grains of water, and even check weighing loaded rounds of ammo and comparing weights if it is suspected that a case might not have received a charge of powder, or perhaps a double charge. A simple means of accurate weight measurement is an essential part of the handloader’s tool collection.
In loading the prepared brass, the case must be placed upright in the decapping base, and the resizing die sitting on top of the base, the brass case resting inside the die. Then, carefully pour the properly leveled powder charge into the top of the loading die as shown in the photo below.
After dropping the powder charge into the case, then drop the appropriate bullet base-first into the top of the loading die as well. Then, using the concave end of the bullet seater/priming base unit, seat the bullet into the prepared and powder charged case with light taps from a non-marring hammer. In adjusting the seating stem for the proper seating depth, it is important to incrementally check the seating depth of the bullet into the case.
In the photo above, the bullet is not yet seated deeply enough in the case. In the photograph below, notice how the bullet is seated so that the brass case is just even with the top of the crimp groove. This seating depth will allow a nice, firm roll crimp of the case mouth into the crimping groove.
Once the bullet is seated to the proper depth in the case, adjust the seating stem lock-ring on the seating stem, jamming it up against the priming base, until it firmly locks the seating stem depth into place. From here on out, each and every bullet will be seated to the exact same depth without having to check each and every bullet as it is seated.
With the bullet properly seated in the case, a roll-type crimp is applied using the opposite end of the resizing die. Note the orientation of the die in the photo below. A few light taps with a hammer creates a nice tight roll crimp on the cartridge mouth into the bullet crimp groove.
Removing the die from the newly loaded round of ammunition reveals a nearly perfect roll-type crimp on this round of .45 Colt ammo.
People take different approaches to handloading, and with the Lee Loader is no exception to this in regard to methodology. While the steps remain the same, some people prefer to take one fired case from the very first step all the way through the process to a finished round of loaded ammunition before starting with another piece of brass.
I prefer to prep all my brass, up until the loading-stage in batches, meaning that all the brass gets decapped, then all cases cleaned and polished, and all cases lubed. Then in the next phase, all get sized and primer pockets cleaned and primers seated. Next all receive case neck expansion and flaring. Finally I like to charge the case, seat the bullet and crimp the case all in one series of steps on each cartridge in turn. In this way chances of double-charging a case are greatly diminished, if the powder is dropped, and a bullet seated as the next step.
Finally all the cases become loaded ammo.
Just because the mechanics of reloading the brass case are done, doesn’t mean the job is finished. Just as important as any step taken thus far, is the simple expedient task of boxing and labeling your handloaded ammunition. This information should include date of loading, powder type, charge weight, bullet type, weight and configuration, primer type and case type as well as approximate velocity. This is very important for both future reference, and for identifying similar looking loads at a later date in time. Especially if it is months, or perhaps years later that a box of ammunition is discovered that was loaded and put away, positive identification of the contents is essential. Don’t ever skip this step.
Labeling loaded ammo becomes increasingly important as experimentation with various powders and bullets progresses. One of the primary advantages in handloading is the ability to assemble ammunition with specialized projectiles, loads specifically tailored to hunting, or light plinking ammunition, to small game loads all for the same firearm. Remembering those combinations may become impossible without adequate documentation.
Actually describing the reloading process takes much longer than loading the ammunition. When utilizing the Lee Loader, turning out a box of fifty handloads for your handgun or rifle takes less than an hour once a system and routine are established. Once accustomed to the tools, it doesn’t take long to crank out enough ammo for an afternoon of plinking, or a season of hunting.
After the ammo is loaded, boxed and labeled, it’s time to make sure that powder is returned to the proper canister, loose unused primers re-boxed, all tools are returned to their respective cases, properly cleaned and a light coat of rust inhibitor applied to the loading tools if prolonged storage without use is anticipated. Even all the little accessory tools fit into the Lee Loader plastic box.
With all the work done, it’s time to test the new loads. Keeping a record of loading data, along with targets fired help not only identify good loads, but also prevents repeating a load that didn’t perform on par as well. Range time tells the tale.
This target was fired with the ammunition loaded in writing this article. The load: BTB .452”-255gWFNPB/6.7grains Winchester 231/WLPP/Mixed Brass. Range was 25 yards from a sandbag rest in a Ruger Stainless 4 5/8” barreled .45 Colt revolver. Ammo loaded with a $12.99 Lee Loader Kit in .45 Colt as pictured in this article. Great ammunition need not be costly, nor necessarily come out of costly equipment.
Half the fun of shooting is handloading. After you shoot, it’s time to do it all again!
Aside from a multitude of seemingly comparable products from which to choose, is the intimidating, if not seemingly insurmountable financial outlay before the prospective handloading newcomer. Reading current monthly firearms and handloading journals serves only to compound the confusion, as the writers penning articles promote only the latest and greatest of gear from the most prestigious manufacturers. As a consequence, the simplicity of handloading becomes lost amid a sea of bigger and more complex equipment costing more with each model change.
Unfortunately, this focus on bigger, better and more advanced equipment dissuades many newcomers to handloading, simply from financial constraints alone. The average prospective handloading neophyte centers his focus upon either cost savings in loaded ammo by rolling his own, or loading specialty rounds that are not commercially available over the counter. In either case, a casual interest in the pursuit of home-grown loads wanes in the face of exorbitant startup expenses of perceived necessities just to begin handloading.
The purpose of this article is two-fold. First to dispel the myth that handloading requires hundreds of dollars worth of equipment and vast expanses of bench-tops and storage space. Secondly, to demonstrate that even given the barest minimum investment, outstanding quality in handloaded ammunition is attainable with the simplest of tools.
While there are many other paths for the beginning handloader to begin the journey in this quest for quality excellence and economy in handloading, few will question the validity or wisdom in choosing the Classic Lee Loader kit as a centerpiece for beginning this journey. These tools have been in continuous production for more than thirty years, in a profusion of caliber choices during that period of time. It has always provided a practical, affordable, compact set of tools capable of turning fired brass into first class loaded ammunition when administered with judicious care and attention to detail.
The classic Lee Loader comes complete for one caliber, neatly contained in a compartmentalized plastic box with all the necessary tools (not including a non-marring hammer), comprehensive instructions and a concise, caliber specific table of loading data. While a casual first glance at these kits may not be impressive, the 1,000 yard world championship record group fired from a rifle, held for many years, was shot using ammunition loaded on one of these compact loading kits!
Moving on down the list of tools and equipment necessary for handloading, the list is pretty short in terms of immediate pure necessities, and as such preserves a fragile budget nicely. I’ll present both the list of equipment used in the preparation of this article, and a bare-bones pure necessity list in the chart below. Too, the actual purchase price of the equipment used in writing this article is listed in the chart, and the itemized tools were purchased over-the-counter in Spokane, Washington on 25 June 2004. Included for reference for both availability and price are three online suppliers and the prices posted on their websites dated 27 June 2004. Those blank places in the chart indicate that the listed item was not available from the supplier listed in the column. There are vast differences in pricing on most handloading equipment, so it does pay to shop around.
Equipment Used In Article (Prices as of June 2004)
Item Description Retail Spokane, WA Graf & Sons FactorySales.com Lock Stock & Barrel
Classic Lee Loader 12.99 15.99 14.95 14.50
Lee Chamfer Tool 1.99 2.69 2.88 2.35
Lee Case Trimmer & Lock Stud 2.99 4.39 3.49 3.75
Lee Case Length Gauge & Shell Holder 2.99 4.39 3.49 3.75
Lee Primer Pocket Cleaner 1.29 1.89 1.89 1.50
Lee Improved Powder Measure Kit 5.99 7.59 6.15
Modern Reloading 2nd Edition 14.99 13.99 27.50 11.75
Hornady One-Shot Case Lube 4.49 6.99 6.25
MTM Case Guard P50 Ammo Box .89 1.49 1.11
Total Cost 48.61 59.41
Bare-Bones Basics
Classic Lee Loader 12.99 15.99 14.95 14.50
Lee Primer Pocket Cleaner 1.29 1.89 1.89 1.50
Lee Improved Powder Measure Kit 5.99 7.59 6.15
Total Cost 20.27 25.47 22.99
Getting the financial aspect of this article aired-out early will dissipate uneasiness over the anticipated bottom line which always seems to loom at the end of every handloading article dealing with various aspects of reloading equipment. As evidenced from the chart above, obtaining everything used in preparation of this presentation costs less than $60 US. Too, if the budget is really strained, getting started may be done for about the cost of fifty factory loaded revolver cartridges!
While the bare-bones list will allow loading fired brass, and produce good loaded ammo, the expanded list offers more loading options and a margin of safety and convenience as well.
The workhorse of this array of tools is the classic Lee Loader, complete for a specific caliber.
In addition to the Lee Loader Kit, are a few more small accessory items, while optional, they can and do make the difference between a simple reload, and a crafted handload. In addition, should a person decide to move beyond the Lee Loader with a full-sized press and conventional dies, these accessories still fill a both useful and necessary niche. These items include a primer-pocket cleaning tool, case trimmer lock-stud and cutter, and case trimmer shell-holder and case-length gauge. A closer look at these accessory items as we come to their application in the handloading process will be presented.
Beginning the reloading process, the first step, after assembling your tools at a suitable workplace, and procuring a solid base for your loading tools is to decap the fired brass. This is accomplished by simply placing the fired brass case into the decapping die, shown below, and using the punch with the small diameter needle-like end, inserting this end into the brass case, through the flash-hole and then rapping lightly with a non-marring hammer on the decapping rod, thus popping the spent primer out of the case. By necessity, the primer must be removed from underneath the decapping base to allow a space for the primer from the next fired case when it too is decapped.
Note the surface used for all steps using the Lee Loader is nothing more than a piece of scrap 2”x 6” lumber placed on the table top. It serves the purpose well, and is both portable, and disposable, as over time the surface becomes quite pock-marked with use of the Lee Loader performing various steps necessary in the reloading process.
Once the fired brass cases are decapped, it becomes necessary to clean them prior to resizing. Cleaning the cases prevents surface grime, powder residue and other abrasive agents from scratching the interior surface of the reloading die. While this seems a trivial step, the purpose is not necessarily to enhance cosmetic appearances of the brass, but to protect the machined surfaces of the resizing die chamber. Simply use some #000 steel wool as shown in the photo below. It only takes a few seconds with a twisting motion to clean the brass of outer grime and residue.
Cleaning the now-empty primer pockets is best done at this stage of the operation as well. This is where one of those “optional accessory items” listed in the chart of tools and expenses really pays off! Cleaning carbon residue from the primer pockets insures uniform primer seating depth, and also mandates a visual inspection of the pocket and at a glance note the flash-hole is clear of any obstructions. Note the difference between the untouched and cleaned primer pockets below.
With both the exterior of the brass and the primer pockets clean, lubing the exterior surfaces of the case is necessary to prevent sticking in the resizing die. While there are a number of excellent products for this purpose, and any of them will suffice nicely, I choose to use Hornady One-Shot spray case lubricant for the purposes of this article. Many other options are available commercially, such as Imperial Sizing Die Wax, RCBS Case Lube, Lee Case Lube as well as home-brewed alternatives varying from dissolved Ivory Soap in water, to glycerin-based mixtures to plain-old kitchen paraffin applied to the brass to prevent sticking cases in the sizing die. Admittedly One-Shot is a somewhat more expensive case lubricant when compared with many of the other options. I simply like the performance, lack of mess and convenience of the Hornady spray product. Whatever option for the task used, at this point the cases must be lubricated prior to sizing.
Once the lube is applied to the deprimed and cleaned cases, they may be resized. The case is inserted into the die, as seen in the photograph below. Note the orientation of the sizing die when the brass is inserted for resizing.
Using a non-marring hammer, drive the case fully into the sizing die, so that the rim of the case is flush with the bottom of the sizing die. Some cartridges/calibers require much more force than others to accomplish this task.
The next step does two functions. First a new primer is seated into the clean primer pocket, and concurrently the case is partially extracted from the resizing die. Before conducting this phase of the operation, it is necessary to consult the reloading data to be used, to determine the correct primer for the selected load. Don’t be mislead, all primers are NOT the same. Many loads are very primer specific. Be sure, and not sorry.
Center a new primer, anvil-up in the priming base (the base with the bullet seating stem coming off the side and a spring loaded base in the center). Then, center the resizing die (containing the resized brass case) over the primer on the priming base. Then, using the long, blunt ended punch, drive the brass out of the sizing die chamber and onto the primer under it. After just a few rounds a “feel” for this process is attained, and the procedure goes quickly and smoothly once a routine is established.
Once the case is successfully primed, remove the sizing die from the priming base, and the case will protrude somewhat out of the die as seen below.
Center the sizing die over the decapping base, and using the blunt-end punch and a sharp rap from a non-marring hammer, eject the now resized and primed brass case from the sizing die body.
Leaving the brass case in the decapping body, use the expanding/flaring plug to expand and slightly flare the case mouth to accept a bullet. Actually very little force is necessary for this step, and light taps of the hammer are all that is needed. Excessive force here will only ruin cases by collapsing them. Don’t overdo a good thing!
Depending upon the cartridge, the number times the brass has been loaded, and the pressure intensity of those loads, the case may, and will stretch in length. This can cause a hazardous condition, and requires trimming brass to a uniform length both for uniformity of the loads, and safety as well. For this purpose the Lee Case Trimmer is included in the list of desirable equipment in the chart at the beginning of this article. The Lee tool greatly simplifies the process, and insures that each and every case is trimmed to a specific uniform length without necessitating the procurement of a costly dial caliper to measure brass. Usually brass only needs trimming every third to fifth reloading, depending upon the cartridge and pressures it generates. Due to the design nature of the Lee Case Trimmer, it must be used before the case is primed. When using the Lee Loader kit, it might be necessary to size the brass, and totally eject it from the sizing die, trim the brass and chamfer it, then prime the brass case in a separate operation, using only the priming base for this purpose.
The Lee Case Trimmer is a four-part tool which gives great flexibility by enabling the user to change caliber/cartridge application with only about a four-dollar investment.
Once the case trimmer is assembled, case trimming is simplicity defined!
Should trimming of cases be necessitated, chamfering the case mouth is also necessary. This step removes any burrs remaining after the case trimmer peels away excessive case-neck length. Too, it puts a slight inside bevel on the brass to facilitate bullet seating.
The tool.
The process.
Now, all our cases are cleaned, resized, trimmed, deburred, primed, expanded and flared, ready for the main event: loading with powder and projectile!
Included with every Lee Loader is a chart of caliber/cartridge specific loading data. This data correlates with the included volumetric powder measure included with the kit, and various combinations of bullets and powder, utilizing that volumetric measure for safe and effective powder charges when combined with the listed bullets.
The simple addition of at least one and preferably two handloading manuals gives a checks-and-balances aspect to your load selection. Too, more loading data is presented which, when combined with the Improved Lee Powder Measure Kit, will open greater variety of loading options to the handloader. Included with the Powder Measure Kit is a powder charge-weight slide-rule, that calibrates a given desired charge weight of selected powder into a volumetric value measured in cubic centimeters. The plastic measures in the Powder Measure Kit are also calibrated in cubic centimeters and thus selecting a desired powder charge is quite simple, match the volume of the measure to the necessary volume of powder to attain the target charge weight.
The Modern Reloading Second Edition manual by Richard Lee found listed in the chart at the beginning of this article, has a vast array of loading data, directly from the powder manufacturers, and organized by Lee into a format that centers around the use of the Lee Improved Powder Measure kit, and has most of the data listed not only in grains of powder by weight, but in volumetric measure in cubic centimeters to directly correlate with the values printed on their powder measures. By using this data, it is a simple matter for the budget-minded handloader to maximize the potential variety afforded by this effective system. Too this manual gives some excellent loading advice, instruction and cautionary information applicable to the novice and experienced handloader alike. It is a well worth-while addition to the basic repertoire of handloading resources, especially to the user of the Lee Loader.
In addition to the Modern Reloading Second Edition by Richard Lee, probably one of the next-best investments to the basic list of equipment is a copy of the Lyman 48th Edition Reloading Manual. The Lyman manual covers virtually all new cartridges while containing a wealth of articles addressing many facets of handloading from the most basic of operations, to fine tuning hunting handloads. The informative articles alone are worth the price of the manual..
Note that the selected load here utilizes a 255 grain lead bullet in the .45 Colt cartridge, and a charge of 6.7 grains of Winchester 231 Powder which should generate close to 835 feet per second out of a revolver. This load specifies a 0.5cc volume powder measure, note the corresponding markings on the measure, and the listing in the loading manual for this load. They match. This load selected from Modern Reloading Second Edition.
Here is the complete Improved Lee Powder Measure Kit. Note the various cc values listed with each measure. This simple kit expands the horizons of the basic Lee Loader in allowing a virtually unlimited selection of powders and bullet weight combinations for any given cartridge.
With the cases carefully prepared, bullet and powder selections determined, and careful double checking of powder charge weight and corresponding powder measure verified, everything is ready for the actual loading process.
Be sure to only have one powder measure out on the reloading bench at a time, and only one type of powder as well. Following this practice will safeguard against a possible mistake in powder charge weights due to a mix-up in powder measures, or a switch in powder types. Either of these errors can, and will mean the difference between a well balanced load that performs to expectations, and a disaster. Be safe, keep only one of each on the bench at any given time.
In the above photo take note of the open can of powder and measure. This is an empty pineapple can, but a tuna can or any other similarly shaped can will suffice for the purposes intended. Be careful of what container is selected, as some plastics generate considerable static electricity, and may possibly cause combustion of the powder contained therein from the static electricity! Play it safe and use a metal container.
Ideally the container used will hold no more than about a quarter-pound of powder at a time, as this amount is very manageable, and should it become somehow contaminated or spilled, it won’t ruin a loading session by spoiling or wasting an entire inventory of powder at once. Too, NEVER SMOKE WHEN HANDLOADING! Take smoke-breaks out of the loading room. This is especially true when dipping powder from an open container.
This brings the discussion to powder dispensing technique. Yes, as mentioned above, dipping is the correct term. The powder measure, or dipper, is pushed straight down into the powder, base first, until gunpowder flows over the edges or rim of the dipper and fills the cavity with powder. Then, once the measure is full it is lifted straight out of the powder container, and leveled off with the edge of a business card with a smooth, fluid sweeping motion. Even veteran handloaders might be surprised at the consistency of dipped powder charges. Using a repeatable consistent technique results in startlingly uniform charges of powder when using nothing more than volumetric powder measures. However, this uniformity is entirely dependent upon proper technique. NEVER, NEVER USE A POWDER DIPPER AS A SCOOP! Scooping these dippers through the powder causes wide variances in powder charge weights.
This article focuses on economical handloading beginnings. For this reason alone the equipment list is as brief as possible, and still provides necessities for loading accurate, safe and reliable ammunition. However, while calibrated powder dippers provide an excellent means of dispensing powder, there is really no substitute for a good quality reloading scale. Besides a second reloading manual, as mentioned earlier, a powder scale should be the next piece of equipment procured in the handloading arsenal of tools. Beyond weighing powder charges a scale serves other useful purposes, such as weighing bullets, cases, determining case capacity in grains of water, and even check weighing loaded rounds of ammo and comparing weights if it is suspected that a case might not have received a charge of powder, or perhaps a double charge. A simple means of accurate weight measurement is an essential part of the handloader’s tool collection.
In loading the prepared brass, the case must be placed upright in the decapping base, and the resizing die sitting on top of the base, the brass case resting inside the die. Then, carefully pour the properly leveled powder charge into the top of the loading die as shown in the photo below.
After dropping the powder charge into the case, then drop the appropriate bullet base-first into the top of the loading die as well. Then, using the concave end of the bullet seater/priming base unit, seat the bullet into the prepared and powder charged case with light taps from a non-marring hammer. In adjusting the seating stem for the proper seating depth, it is important to incrementally check the seating depth of the bullet into the case.
In the photo above, the bullet is not yet seated deeply enough in the case. In the photograph below, notice how the bullet is seated so that the brass case is just even with the top of the crimp groove. This seating depth will allow a nice, firm roll crimp of the case mouth into the crimping groove.
Once the bullet is seated to the proper depth in the case, adjust the seating stem lock-ring on the seating stem, jamming it up against the priming base, until it firmly locks the seating stem depth into place. From here on out, each and every bullet will be seated to the exact same depth without having to check each and every bullet as it is seated.
With the bullet properly seated in the case, a roll-type crimp is applied using the opposite end of the resizing die. Note the orientation of the die in the photo below. A few light taps with a hammer creates a nice tight roll crimp on the cartridge mouth into the bullet crimp groove.
Removing the die from the newly loaded round of ammunition reveals a nearly perfect roll-type crimp on this round of .45 Colt ammo.
People take different approaches to handloading, and with the Lee Loader is no exception to this in regard to methodology. While the steps remain the same, some people prefer to take one fired case from the very first step all the way through the process to a finished round of loaded ammunition before starting with another piece of brass.
I prefer to prep all my brass, up until the loading-stage in batches, meaning that all the brass gets decapped, then all cases cleaned and polished, and all cases lubed. Then in the next phase, all get sized and primer pockets cleaned and primers seated. Next all receive case neck expansion and flaring. Finally I like to charge the case, seat the bullet and crimp the case all in one series of steps on each cartridge in turn. In this way chances of double-charging a case are greatly diminished, if the powder is dropped, and a bullet seated as the next step.
Finally all the cases become loaded ammo.
Just because the mechanics of reloading the brass case are done, doesn’t mean the job is finished. Just as important as any step taken thus far, is the simple expedient task of boxing and labeling your handloaded ammunition. This information should include date of loading, powder type, charge weight, bullet type, weight and configuration, primer type and case type as well as approximate velocity. This is very important for both future reference, and for identifying similar looking loads at a later date in time. Especially if it is months, or perhaps years later that a box of ammunition is discovered that was loaded and put away, positive identification of the contents is essential. Don’t ever skip this step.
Labeling loaded ammo becomes increasingly important as experimentation with various powders and bullets progresses. One of the primary advantages in handloading is the ability to assemble ammunition with specialized projectiles, loads specifically tailored to hunting, or light plinking ammunition, to small game loads all for the same firearm. Remembering those combinations may become impossible without adequate documentation.
Actually describing the reloading process takes much longer than loading the ammunition. When utilizing the Lee Loader, turning out a box of fifty handloads for your handgun or rifle takes less than an hour once a system and routine are established. Once accustomed to the tools, it doesn’t take long to crank out enough ammo for an afternoon of plinking, or a season of hunting.
After the ammo is loaded, boxed and labeled, it’s time to make sure that powder is returned to the proper canister, loose unused primers re-boxed, all tools are returned to their respective cases, properly cleaned and a light coat of rust inhibitor applied to the loading tools if prolonged storage without use is anticipated. Even all the little accessory tools fit into the Lee Loader plastic box.
With all the work done, it’s time to test the new loads. Keeping a record of loading data, along with targets fired help not only identify good loads, but also prevents repeating a load that didn’t perform on par as well. Range time tells the tale.
This target was fired with the ammunition loaded in writing this article. The load: BTB .452”-255gWFNPB/6.7grains Winchester 231/WLPP/Mixed Brass. Range was 25 yards from a sandbag rest in a Ruger Stainless 4 5/8” barreled .45 Colt revolver. Ammo loaded with a $12.99 Lee Loader Kit in .45 Colt as pictured in this article. Great ammunition need not be costly, nor necessarily come out of costly equipment.
Half the fun of shooting is handloading. After you shoot, it’s time to do it all again!
LEE Case Mouth Flaring Die
LEE CASE MOUTH FLARING DIE
The LEE Case Mouth Flaring Die is a very unique application for a reloading tool, and makes one wonder, “Why did it take so long for someone to think of designing a tool in this manner?”
Reloading a straight walled cartridge case; like the 45ACP or .357 Magnum, etc. requires a 3-die set. The first die resizes (reduces) the outer case walls. The second die flares the mouth. The case mouth must be flared so a new bullet can be started into the case. Without the case mouth being flared, the heel of the bullet would catch on the case mouth, crushing the case mouth. OK, what about bottleneck cases like the 30/06, 8X57, 7.62 NATO, 762X54R etc? They generally require a 2-die set.
I say generally because the die makers assume reloaders of bottleneck cases will be loading jacketed bullets. Of course the die makers know some will be using cast bullets. Against that purpose; most (but certainly not all) die makers also produce a case mouth flaring die, more on that later.
The reason a jacketed bullet doesn’t require a flaring die is; the expander ball passes thru the case neck as the case is withdrawn from the FL die. The expander ball brings the internal size of the case neck up to .001 below the size of the jacketed bullet. The jacketed bullet expands the case neck the last .001, and that is enough bullet grip for proper ignition, and complete burning of a normal powder charge. However, what if the reloader wants to use cast bullets, or is concerned the sides of the jacketed bullet may be scraped by the case mouth during the seating process?
Cast bullets are much softer then jacketed. The hardest cast bullet will have a Brinell hardness of 30; most are softer. Jacketed bullets have a Brinell hardness of 100. Attempting to seat a cast bullet in an un-flared case neck will damage the bullet.
Boat tail jacketed bullets will seat easily in an un-flared case neck, however, the parallel sides of the bullet can still be scrapped. Flat base bullets can get a lot of scrapping on the sides. De-burring the case mouth with tools for such purposes will help keep bullet damage to a minimum. However, excessive de-burring can weaken case mouths.
Most major reloading tool manufacturers have cataloged a flaring die for decades. Traditionally designed flaring dies all seem to have two features. They are caliber specific, and are of rigid construction. Additionally, one company makes flaring dies that are specified for either “long” or “short” cartridges within a caliber family. These dies work OK, but a new flaring die must be acquired for each caliber family. Being rigidity constructed, they can flare a case mouth off center if the press isn’t in perfect axial alignment.
Adjustment piece, small flaring plug, large flaring plug, die body
Small flaring plug & large flaring plug
LEE case mouth flaring die in top of press
Ready to flare a piece of brass
Unflared piece of brass, notice the bullet will not start into the case mouth
Flared piece of brass, notice the bullet will now start into the case mouth
The LEE Case Mouth Flaring Die is a departure from traditional thinking and design. First, it is truly a “universal” die. Two flaring “plugs” are included, one large, one small. Between them, all calibers are covered. The plugs can float a bit once installed in the die body. Since they float, they will self-center in a case mouth; making sure both sides of the case mouth flare evenly.
It matters not whether one is flaring 7.62 NATO cases or 300 Winchester Magnum cases, there is plenty of adjustment in the LEE Case Mouth Flaring Die body. This one die covers all case lengths.
Need to switch flaring plugs? It’s the work of a minute to switch from flaring .38 Specials to flaring 45/70’s! The LEE Case Mouth Flaring Die can be ordered from any web based or catalog supplier of reloading tools for about $10.00 + shipping.
The LEE Case Mouth Flaring Die and LEE Decapping Die are two tools that I find indispensable. They should be on every reloader’s bench.
The LEE Case Mouth Flaring Die is a very unique application for a reloading tool, and makes one wonder, “Why did it take so long for someone to think of designing a tool in this manner?”
Reloading a straight walled cartridge case; like the 45ACP or .357 Magnum, etc. requires a 3-die set. The first die resizes (reduces) the outer case walls. The second die flares the mouth. The case mouth must be flared so a new bullet can be started into the case. Without the case mouth being flared, the heel of the bullet would catch on the case mouth, crushing the case mouth. OK, what about bottleneck cases like the 30/06, 8X57, 7.62 NATO, 762X54R etc? They generally require a 2-die set.
I say generally because the die makers assume reloaders of bottleneck cases will be loading jacketed bullets. Of course the die makers know some will be using cast bullets. Against that purpose; most (but certainly not all) die makers also produce a case mouth flaring die, more on that later.
The reason a jacketed bullet doesn’t require a flaring die is; the expander ball passes thru the case neck as the case is withdrawn from the FL die. The expander ball brings the internal size of the case neck up to .001 below the size of the jacketed bullet. The jacketed bullet expands the case neck the last .001, and that is enough bullet grip for proper ignition, and complete burning of a normal powder charge. However, what if the reloader wants to use cast bullets, or is concerned the sides of the jacketed bullet may be scraped by the case mouth during the seating process?
Cast bullets are much softer then jacketed. The hardest cast bullet will have a Brinell hardness of 30; most are softer. Jacketed bullets have a Brinell hardness of 100. Attempting to seat a cast bullet in an un-flared case neck will damage the bullet.
Boat tail jacketed bullets will seat easily in an un-flared case neck, however, the parallel sides of the bullet can still be scrapped. Flat base bullets can get a lot of scrapping on the sides. De-burring the case mouth with tools for such purposes will help keep bullet damage to a minimum. However, excessive de-burring can weaken case mouths.
Most major reloading tool manufacturers have cataloged a flaring die for decades. Traditionally designed flaring dies all seem to have two features. They are caliber specific, and are of rigid construction. Additionally, one company makes flaring dies that are specified for either “long” or “short” cartridges within a caliber family. These dies work OK, but a new flaring die must be acquired for each caliber family. Being rigidity constructed, they can flare a case mouth off center if the press isn’t in perfect axial alignment.
Adjustment piece, small flaring plug, large flaring plug, die body
Small flaring plug & large flaring plug
LEE case mouth flaring die in top of press
Ready to flare a piece of brass
Unflared piece of brass, notice the bullet will not start into the case mouth
Flared piece of brass, notice the bullet will now start into the case mouth
The LEE Case Mouth Flaring Die is a departure from traditional thinking and design. First, it is truly a “universal” die. Two flaring “plugs” are included, one large, one small. Between them, all calibers are covered. The plugs can float a bit once installed in the die body. Since they float, they will self-center in a case mouth; making sure both sides of the case mouth flare evenly.
It matters not whether one is flaring 7.62 NATO cases or 300 Winchester Magnum cases, there is plenty of adjustment in the LEE Case Mouth Flaring Die body. This one die covers all case lengths.
Need to switch flaring plugs? It’s the work of a minute to switch from flaring .38 Specials to flaring 45/70’s! The LEE Case Mouth Flaring Die can be ordered from any web based or catalog supplier of reloading tools for about $10.00 + shipping.
The LEE Case Mouth Flaring Die and LEE Decapping Die are two tools that I find indispensable. They should be on every reloader’s bench.
Tuesday, January 27, 2009
Forster Tap-O-Cap
>> Forster Tap-O-Cap :: By J. Marshall Stanton on 2002-02-16
Print This Open Sight | Share This Open Sight
In this age of “New And Improved”, a move pervading blackpowder-shooting trends is for more fire, and hotter ignition systems. Although functionally superior, especially in high humidity, low temperature conditions, these new super-ignition systems aren’t always needed, or possible. Too there remains amongst blue-smoke shooters, a persistent independent streak that yearns for simplicity and self-reliance. Towards this latter end I write.
Although not new on the market, the Forster Tap-O-Cap enjoys limited retail distribution, and little or no current press. After all, old news doesn’t sell new magazines! The truth is, some older products are indeed news to a generation newly entering the shooting sports. I’ve been using the pictured Tap-O-Cap for at least ten years, with superb success, and exceptionally dependable ignition.
Now, what is a Tap-O-Cap? It is simply an ingeniously designed die and punch tool-set marketed along with what amounts to a modified paper punch for the express purpose of making your own No.11 percussion caps for black powder arms. The skirts for the percussion cap are formed by the die from aluminum beverage cans, and the priming medium from toy caps for a child’s cap-pistol. Simplistic? Perhaps, but it is very effective, easy to make and economical.
Using scissors or shears, cut an aluminum beverage can around both top and bottom, then cut the remaining cylinder top to bottom. This will produce a flat piece of aluminum from which to cut strips about ½” wide. These strips feed into a horizontal slot in the die body, from which the percussion cap skirt is formed. A punch assembly, hollow in the center, and having a serrated end, is inserted into the die, then struck with a wooden or plastic mallet. This hollow punch assembly cuts out a round piece of aluminum from the strip inserted into the die body, and in the same motion, forms the skirt over a tapered mandrel in the bottom of the die as the punch reaches the bottom of the stroke. The tapered mandrel of the die body correctly forms the percussion cap skirt, and shoves the finished skirt up, into the hollow portion of the punch assembly, whereby the finished skirt is ejected through the top of the punch as finished skirts are progressively shoved through the hollow core.
The priming agent for these homegrown percussion caps, are derived from kid’s toy caps. The tool included for this step appears as an ordinary paper punch, which it is, just with a very specific size punch. This punch is perfectly sized such that the resulting punch-outs fit snugly inside the aluminum percussion cap skirts, and coinciding roughly with the diameter of a typical priming charge in a roll of caps manufactured for repeating cap-guns.
Selection of toy caps is all-important when determining the reliability of the percussion cap. In today’s politically correct toy departments and toy stores, toy caps are frequently a scarce resource, much less finding any selection to choose from. The pictured American West brand of caps from Tootsietoy, are reliable performers, with concentrated priming charges in very consistent, well shaped spots on the roll-caps. The amount and intensity of these priming charges has proven to be exceedingly consistent from package to package.
There are other brands I have used in the past, most of which were made in Taiwan, and have proven superior to all others, however their availability at this time is unknown, and I’m still working on a large supply of them purchased seven or eight years ago from a variety store going out of business locally. If several brands are available, by all means try them all, and select the most consistent, and hottest caps from them.
Forster includes a small wooden dowel properly sized for inserting punched-out cap priming circles into the formed aluminum skirt of the percussion caps. For my purposes, I prefer just to grind the point from a sixteen-penny framing nail, and using the blunt ended nail to seat caps into the skirt. These priming charges must be firmly seated to the bottom of the skirts for reliable ignition. While one charge may be adequate, I’ve always enjoyed the utmost of reliability in these homemade percussion caps when two priming charges are inserted into each skirt instead of one. Interestingly, I’ve found no help in ignition by the addition of yet another charge, making three caps per skirt, as opposed to just the two mentioned above. On the down-side it seems that the third priming charge takes up too much internal space in the aluminum skirt, and impairs the seating of the percussion cap on standard No.11 nipples.
Now, about performance: I’ve used these percussion caps exclusively on my cap-and-ball revolvers for many, many years, and have found them totally reliable while contributing some of the very best accuracy ever achieved with these fine guns. As an added bonus, these homemade percussion caps, because they have slightly tapered skirts, fit the nipples, especially on these revolvers much more tightly than commercial percussion caps. This equates to nearly zero incidences of percussion caps coming off nipples due to recoil during firing! In long guns, I’ve found performance to be on a par with RWS and CCI percussion caps, when proper toy caps are obtained for this use. However, the shooting I do with muzzle-loaders and cap-and-ball revolvers is done 100% with black powder, usually FFFg. Using traditional black powder, these caps give complete reliability, however, if employed in lighting-off Pyrodex, Clean-Shot, or Black Canyon powders, the reliability issue of ignition is dubious at best, especially in humid or extremely cold conditions. But then again, if you’re using homemade percussion caps, you’re probably too much of a purist for substitute powders.
While not widely advertised, nor widely distributed, the Forster Tap-O-Cap is an outstanding tool of ageless durability, and adds an interesting wrinkle in the already time-consuming pursuit of muzzle loading!
To purchase the Forster Tap-O-Cap, we know of only one online retailer consistently stocking this item, Midsouth Shooter’s Supply, the link below will take you directly to this item on their shopping cart:
Print This Open Sight | Share This Open Sight
In this age of “New And Improved”, a move pervading blackpowder-shooting trends is for more fire, and hotter ignition systems. Although functionally superior, especially in high humidity, low temperature conditions, these new super-ignition systems aren’t always needed, or possible. Too there remains amongst blue-smoke shooters, a persistent independent streak that yearns for simplicity and self-reliance. Towards this latter end I write.
Although not new on the market, the Forster Tap-O-Cap enjoys limited retail distribution, and little or no current press. After all, old news doesn’t sell new magazines! The truth is, some older products are indeed news to a generation newly entering the shooting sports. I’ve been using the pictured Tap-O-Cap for at least ten years, with superb success, and exceptionally dependable ignition.
Now, what is a Tap-O-Cap? It is simply an ingeniously designed die and punch tool-set marketed along with what amounts to a modified paper punch for the express purpose of making your own No.11 percussion caps for black powder arms. The skirts for the percussion cap are formed by the die from aluminum beverage cans, and the priming medium from toy caps for a child’s cap-pistol. Simplistic? Perhaps, but it is very effective, easy to make and economical.
Using scissors or shears, cut an aluminum beverage can around both top and bottom, then cut the remaining cylinder top to bottom. This will produce a flat piece of aluminum from which to cut strips about ½” wide. These strips feed into a horizontal slot in the die body, from which the percussion cap skirt is formed. A punch assembly, hollow in the center, and having a serrated end, is inserted into the die, then struck with a wooden or plastic mallet. This hollow punch assembly cuts out a round piece of aluminum from the strip inserted into the die body, and in the same motion, forms the skirt over a tapered mandrel in the bottom of the die as the punch reaches the bottom of the stroke. The tapered mandrel of the die body correctly forms the percussion cap skirt, and shoves the finished skirt up, into the hollow portion of the punch assembly, whereby the finished skirt is ejected through the top of the punch as finished skirts are progressively shoved through the hollow core.
The priming agent for these homegrown percussion caps, are derived from kid’s toy caps. The tool included for this step appears as an ordinary paper punch, which it is, just with a very specific size punch. This punch is perfectly sized such that the resulting punch-outs fit snugly inside the aluminum percussion cap skirts, and coinciding roughly with the diameter of a typical priming charge in a roll of caps manufactured for repeating cap-guns.
Selection of toy caps is all-important when determining the reliability of the percussion cap. In today’s politically correct toy departments and toy stores, toy caps are frequently a scarce resource, much less finding any selection to choose from. The pictured American West brand of caps from Tootsietoy, are reliable performers, with concentrated priming charges in very consistent, well shaped spots on the roll-caps. The amount and intensity of these priming charges has proven to be exceedingly consistent from package to package.
There are other brands I have used in the past, most of which were made in Taiwan, and have proven superior to all others, however their availability at this time is unknown, and I’m still working on a large supply of them purchased seven or eight years ago from a variety store going out of business locally. If several brands are available, by all means try them all, and select the most consistent, and hottest caps from them.
Forster includes a small wooden dowel properly sized for inserting punched-out cap priming circles into the formed aluminum skirt of the percussion caps. For my purposes, I prefer just to grind the point from a sixteen-penny framing nail, and using the blunt ended nail to seat caps into the skirt. These priming charges must be firmly seated to the bottom of the skirts for reliable ignition. While one charge may be adequate, I’ve always enjoyed the utmost of reliability in these homemade percussion caps when two priming charges are inserted into each skirt instead of one. Interestingly, I’ve found no help in ignition by the addition of yet another charge, making three caps per skirt, as opposed to just the two mentioned above. On the down-side it seems that the third priming charge takes up too much internal space in the aluminum skirt, and impairs the seating of the percussion cap on standard No.11 nipples.
Now, about performance: I’ve used these percussion caps exclusively on my cap-and-ball revolvers for many, many years, and have found them totally reliable while contributing some of the very best accuracy ever achieved with these fine guns. As an added bonus, these homemade percussion caps, because they have slightly tapered skirts, fit the nipples, especially on these revolvers much more tightly than commercial percussion caps. This equates to nearly zero incidences of percussion caps coming off nipples due to recoil during firing! In long guns, I’ve found performance to be on a par with RWS and CCI percussion caps, when proper toy caps are obtained for this use. However, the shooting I do with muzzle-loaders and cap-and-ball revolvers is done 100% with black powder, usually FFFg. Using traditional black powder, these caps give complete reliability, however, if employed in lighting-off Pyrodex, Clean-Shot, or Black Canyon powders, the reliability issue of ignition is dubious at best, especially in humid or extremely cold conditions. But then again, if you’re using homemade percussion caps, you’re probably too much of a purist for substitute powders.
While not widely advertised, nor widely distributed, the Forster Tap-O-Cap is an outstanding tool of ageless durability, and adds an interesting wrinkle in the already time-consuming pursuit of muzzle loading!
To purchase the Forster Tap-O-Cap, we know of only one online retailer consistently stocking this item, Midsouth Shooter’s Supply, the link below will take you directly to this item on their shopping cart:
Converting Berdan primed brass to use Boxer primers.
Converting Berdan primed brass to use Boxer primers.
By: M. Chandler
Berdan primed brass from Europe and Asia is difficult to deprime and reload. Here is a procedure for converting the brass to accept Boxer primers common to American reloaders. This project is done using 7.5 x 55 Swiss cartridges for the K-31 rifle, that take a standard .308" bullet. The integral anvil must be removed and a center flash hole drilled. A 5C collet fixture is handy for holding the brass, or a homemade clamping fixture should not be difficult to make.
You can't easily drill this anvil out as the drill will run off and damage the wall. You could locate the fixture under the spindle and plunge an end mill to cut it. I simply made a .214" dia. cutter from a gage pin that would cut on the end only. Easy to do with a Dremal tool. Two negative rake (for brass) cutting edges just like a drill and relieved behind the cutting edge. The smooth outside wall will not cut and the edge being flat doesn't push off center.
As you can see, the tool cut the anvil out nicely without more than burnishing the pocket wall.
Then you need to make a center mark on the flat bottom of the pocket for the small thru flash hole. A regular #3 drill will do fine if you are careful to bring it down without hitting the sides hard.
Then a .076 drill was run all the way through and deburred on both sides.
If you run these through your reloading equipment make sure the hole is big enough for your depriming rod. Notice the two flash holes from the Berdan primed pocket are off center. I'd simply ignore them. The pocket should be plenty strong. So we have a primer pocket ready for a Boxer primer but it is still too big at about .216" dia. as the .210" Boxer primer would just fall out. We could solder or thread or glue a sleeve in, but why not just squash the edge in? We call that swaging or cold forming. A ball bearing will push a ridge in and down.
You must support the web of the cartridge from inside. If you have a very rigid work bench you could drive the ball with a hammer, or you could use an arbor press or a hydraulic press. I decided just to give a vise a try. It did not move quite enough metal so I put a c-clamp over the outside and that gave me enough pressure. I didn't photograph using the C-clamp.
I marked the brass with a felt tip so you could see the shiny area where the metal was moved. This will be a ridge smaller than the diameter needed.
We need a rather exact fit to press a primer in. I ran a .209 gage pin into the pocket to counter swag the hole. Just to make sure I also ran a .209 reamer in too. It accepted a Boxer primer with a good fit.
Obviously the primer is held by a ridge rather than a straight wall. That made me concerned it might loosen after a single shot. So to test I transferred a powder charge from a commercial round to the GP11 brass and loaded a 180 grain Speer flat nose bullet. The volume of the Swiss brass is less than commercial brass. That combined with the heavier bullet should make sure the pressure was at least as much as the military surplus ammo. After firing the primer was tight and did not push out easily by hand with a pin.
As with any handloading operation, this is only a general outline. You are responsible for your own safety to qualify every component and measure as every combination of brass, powder, and propellant is unique and potentially hazardous. Experimental modifications like this are not something I'd recommend unless you are well experienced and knowledgeable in all the aspects of hand loading. Consider doing a similar program entirely at your own risk As they say, "Your mileage may vary." How many times a piece of brass can be loaded after this work at standard pressures I have no idea, nor have I tried this sort of modification in other calibers. I intend to use the brass for light loads so I may never collect that data.
By: M. Chandler
Berdan primed brass from Europe and Asia is difficult to deprime and reload. Here is a procedure for converting the brass to accept Boxer primers common to American reloaders. This project is done using 7.5 x 55 Swiss cartridges for the K-31 rifle, that take a standard .308" bullet. The integral anvil must be removed and a center flash hole drilled. A 5C collet fixture is handy for holding the brass, or a homemade clamping fixture should not be difficult to make.
You can't easily drill this anvil out as the drill will run off and damage the wall. You could locate the fixture under the spindle and plunge an end mill to cut it. I simply made a .214" dia. cutter from a gage pin that would cut on the end only. Easy to do with a Dremal tool. Two negative rake (for brass) cutting edges just like a drill and relieved behind the cutting edge. The smooth outside wall will not cut and the edge being flat doesn't push off center.
As you can see, the tool cut the anvil out nicely without more than burnishing the pocket wall.
Then you need to make a center mark on the flat bottom of the pocket for the small thru flash hole. A regular #3 drill will do fine if you are careful to bring it down without hitting the sides hard.
Then a .076 drill was run all the way through and deburred on both sides.
If you run these through your reloading equipment make sure the hole is big enough for your depriming rod. Notice the two flash holes from the Berdan primed pocket are off center. I'd simply ignore them. The pocket should be plenty strong. So we have a primer pocket ready for a Boxer primer but it is still too big at about .216" dia. as the .210" Boxer primer would just fall out. We could solder or thread or glue a sleeve in, but why not just squash the edge in? We call that swaging or cold forming. A ball bearing will push a ridge in and down.
You must support the web of the cartridge from inside. If you have a very rigid work bench you could drive the ball with a hammer, or you could use an arbor press or a hydraulic press. I decided just to give a vise a try. It did not move quite enough metal so I put a c-clamp over the outside and that gave me enough pressure. I didn't photograph using the C-clamp.
I marked the brass with a felt tip so you could see the shiny area where the metal was moved. This will be a ridge smaller than the diameter needed.
We need a rather exact fit to press a primer in. I ran a .209 gage pin into the pocket to counter swag the hole. Just to make sure I also ran a .209 reamer in too. It accepted a Boxer primer with a good fit.
Obviously the primer is held by a ridge rather than a straight wall. That made me concerned it might loosen after a single shot. So to test I transferred a powder charge from a commercial round to the GP11 brass and loaded a 180 grain Speer flat nose bullet. The volume of the Swiss brass is less than commercial brass. That combined with the heavier bullet should make sure the pressure was at least as much as the military surplus ammo. After firing the primer was tight and did not push out easily by hand with a pin.
As with any handloading operation, this is only a general outline. You are responsible for your own safety to qualify every component and measure as every combination of brass, powder, and propellant is unique and potentially hazardous. Experimental modifications like this are not something I'd recommend unless you are well experienced and knowledgeable in all the aspects of hand loading. Consider doing a similar program entirely at your own risk As they say, "Your mileage may vary." How many times a piece of brass can be loaded after this work at standard pressures I have no idea, nor have I tried this sort of modification in other calibers. I intend to use the brass for light loads so I may never collect that data.
Monday, January 26, 2009
22lr bullet mold
Anyone have any idea if there is a mold for 22lr bullets maybe slightly heavier weights, the base needs to be reduced diameter. Id like to find something.
[more...]
[more...]
Sunday, January 25, 2009
Wax Bullets for Indoor Shooting
Wax Bullets for Indoor Shooting
Want to shoot your Makarov indoors or in the backyard without freaking out the neighbors? Try casting your own wax bullets, then use a primer-only case to shoot them.
Don't Want to Cast Your Own?
We also carry X-ring rubber bullet sets. The only downside is that you need to recover the rubber bullets, clean them and reuse them. See the On-Line Shopping Cart Makarov Page for how to order.
Here's how to mold them:
Get a Lee Makarov bullet mold - Midway carries them and we might look into offering them.
Melt some candle wax from old candle stubs in a double boiler made of an old pot filled partially with water and a tin can as the inside pot. You don't need much and it's more efficient if you only melt a little at a time.
Pour the wax into the mold. If there's a top sprue plate, move it aside and pour directly into the mold. Then move the shield into place while the wax is still liquid. I found I didn't need to lube the molds for the bullets to drop free later.
Wait about 1 minute...this time becomes longer as the mold metal warms up and it takes longer to solidify. An ice water bath will compensate for that and increase your casting rate.
Open the mold and push the bullets out. Be careful not to put too much pressure on them yet or they'll deform. Put them in the fridge to completely cool, especially in hot weather.
Here's how to shoot them:
Take the appropriate brass and run it through the resizer/decapper and reprime the case. Run the case through the belling die being careful not to open it up too far.
Be sure the belling stage did not drop any powder into the case. You want the primer only.
Push the wax bullet into the case. Make sure you don't seat it to far. Since more bullet molds oversize the bullets in anticipation of a bullet sizing operation, the bullet should not go that deep. Make up a few more rounds this way.
Spritz the bore with a quick lubricant like WD-40 to minimize "waxing." This should be done every few rounds.
Put on eye and ear protection.
Chamber the round, aim and fire. This will not cycle the slide, so you'll have to eject each case separately.
Notes:
Follow all accepted safety rules. Wax ammo does not make your gun a toy and should never be fired at people or animals! OK, you can shoot cockroaches. :-) Furthermore, penetration is still considerable at short ranges (mine puncture 6 layers of Priority Mail box cardboard).
When shooting indoors, be sure you have proper ventilation. The fumes from primers are not good for you and will, at the least, give you a headache.
When you're all done, be sure to give the barrel a good scrubbing to make sure no buildup will cause problems at the range using real ammo.
Pictures:
Hover over pictures for captions
Want to shoot your Makarov indoors or in the backyard without freaking out the neighbors? Try casting your own wax bullets, then use a primer-only case to shoot them.
Don't Want to Cast Your Own?
We also carry X-ring rubber bullet sets. The only downside is that you need to recover the rubber bullets, clean them and reuse them. See the On-Line Shopping Cart Makarov Page for how to order.
Here's how to mold them:
Get a Lee Makarov bullet mold - Midway carries them and we might look into offering them.
Melt some candle wax from old candle stubs in a double boiler made of an old pot filled partially with water and a tin can as the inside pot. You don't need much and it's more efficient if you only melt a little at a time.
Pour the wax into the mold. If there's a top sprue plate, move it aside and pour directly into the mold. Then move the shield into place while the wax is still liquid. I found I didn't need to lube the molds for the bullets to drop free later.
Wait about 1 minute...this time becomes longer as the mold metal warms up and it takes longer to solidify. An ice water bath will compensate for that and increase your casting rate.
Open the mold and push the bullets out. Be careful not to put too much pressure on them yet or they'll deform. Put them in the fridge to completely cool, especially in hot weather.
Here's how to shoot them:
Take the appropriate brass and run it through the resizer/decapper and reprime the case. Run the case through the belling die being careful not to open it up too far.
Be sure the belling stage did not drop any powder into the case. You want the primer only.
Push the wax bullet into the case. Make sure you don't seat it to far. Since more bullet molds oversize the bullets in anticipation of a bullet sizing operation, the bullet should not go that deep. Make up a few more rounds this way.
Spritz the bore with a quick lubricant like WD-40 to minimize "waxing." This should be done every few rounds.
Put on eye and ear protection.
Chamber the round, aim and fire. This will not cycle the slide, so you'll have to eject each case separately.
Notes:
Follow all accepted safety rules. Wax ammo does not make your gun a toy and should never be fired at people or animals! OK, you can shoot cockroaches. :-) Furthermore, penetration is still considerable at short ranges (mine puncture 6 layers of Priority Mail box cardboard).
When shooting indoors, be sure you have proper ventilation. The fumes from primers are not good for you and will, at the least, give you a headache.
When you're all done, be sure to give the barrel a good scrubbing to make sure no buildup will cause problems at the range using real ammo.
Pictures:
Hover over pictures for captions
Thermoset plastic bullets?
I have a relative who is selling some off a few firearms, a Chinese SKS, some deer rifles in everything from .243 to .30-06, and some handguns.
I've been keeping my eyes open for a .223 carbine to replace my .22lr plinker, since it's old and the barrel is almost unusable. I was going to use .22 pellets with the .223 primer pockets drilled out for magnum or shotgun primers for plinking, since I only get to the range every once in a while, and rarely hunt.
I know people use wax and glue bullets all the time to shoot in centerfire pistols and rifles. I'm a hobbyist and I've molded plastic parts for things using ABS granules... what I wondered is why not use them in a bullet mold?
ABS and other thermoset plastics can be bought in granules (tiny pellets) that melt easily and set hard. I have 9 pounds of the stuff left... I think they would easily make much more consistent bullets than hot glue or wax. You could probably seat to a correct OAL to feed in a semi (though you'd obviously still have to operate the bolt by hand)
If this could be done, it would make easy plinking with plastic bullets and primers. I wouldn't need to find a .223, I could buy up that SKS, or another long gun which would be great. My neighbor has an amazing reloading setup that he'd gladly let me use, since I let him use my workshop for his woodworking projects. I just don't want to go ruin any of his molds or dies experimenting with this if the experience reloaders here don't think it's a good idea.
I know I ask crazy things here, but I'm a "what if" kind of guy. If it's been done before it's just not fun!
[more...]
I've been keeping my eyes open for a .223 carbine to replace my .22lr plinker, since it's old and the barrel is almost unusable. I was going to use .22 pellets with the .223 primer pockets drilled out for magnum or shotgun primers for plinking, since I only get to the range every once in a while, and rarely hunt.
I know people use wax and glue bullets all the time to shoot in centerfire pistols and rifles. I'm a hobbyist and I've molded plastic parts for things using ABS granules... what I wondered is why not use them in a bullet mold?
ABS and other thermoset plastics can be bought in granules (tiny pellets) that melt easily and set hard. I have 9 pounds of the stuff left... I think they would easily make much more consistent bullets than hot glue or wax. You could probably seat to a correct OAL to feed in a semi (though you'd obviously still have to operate the bolt by hand)
If this could be done, it would make easy plinking with plastic bullets and primers. I wouldn't need to find a .223, I could buy up that SKS, or another long gun which would be great. My neighbor has an amazing reloading setup that he'd gladly let me use, since I let him use my workshop for his woodworking projects. I just don't want to go ruin any of his molds or dies experimenting with this if the experience reloaders here don't think it's a good idea.
I know I ask crazy things here, but I'm a "what if" kind of guy. If it's been done before it's just not fun!
[more...]
Friday, January 23, 2009
Lubing Gluelits
I got a coupla hours this afternoon to mess around with the gluelits. The agenda was to develop a loading procedure to overcome the friction problem of shooting "dry" gluelits.
I started by shooting dry gluelits untill I had a problem. Didn't take long. After about 4 cylinder loads, I had one stick in the barrel. I tried gently pushing it out with a dowel, but no soap. A shot of WD-40 from both directions solved that and it came right out.
I cleaned my .45 Colt New Service revolver then ran a fairly long patch('bout 18") through the bore with a moderate application of high grade 30 weight air compressor oil. Nothing but the best for my Colt! I immediately noticed a significant increase in M/V and bullet energy. I blew a hole in a plastic patio chair! By the time I got to the end of the remaining 5 shots in that cylinder load, the M/V had dropped off significantly. AHA! We need lubrication on every shot.
I hopped in me trusty Chevy S-10 and down to Wally-World we went. A teflon lined cookie sheet, 3 boxes of Gulf brand canning wax, a bottle of mineral oil, a Pyrex measuring cup and a partridge in a pear tree.
I melted 3 bars of the wax in the measuring cup in the nuke box. By the way, wax doesn't heat in a nuke box, but the glass measuring cup does. 5 minutes and the glass measuring cup is hot enough to not only melt the wax, but also hot enough to give you a really GOOD 2nd degree burn! Use gloves! I got 300 milliliters of melted wax and added 300 milliliters of mineral oil. I stirred the mineral oil into the hot wax and poured the whole batch into the cookie sheet. 1/2 hour later, it was cool enough to use as bullet(oops!) gluelit lube.
I oiled the inside of a .45 colt case with a bit of oil on a .45 caliber bore mop. I pushed a glue stick in the case as far as it would go, marked it with a sharpie and pulled it back out. I cut a plug of the glue stick about 125K short of the mark and pushed it back in with a small nut driver. This left a vacancy in the mouth of the case for a lube "cookie". I then pushed the case into the lube mixture that had set up by then. The lube "cookie" didn't want to stay in the case on lifting it from the bottom of the pan, so I had to kinda rake it up the side. Mighta of put a bit too much mineral oil in the mix. I pressed the cookie in the mouth of the case with my finger to kinda spread it out, grabbed my Colt and headed for the south porch.
I kept both eyes open and was barely able to see the cookie disintegrating in the air. No visual of the gluelit. I hit a laurel tree and the gluelit bounced back so far that it hit the side of the house. By the way, the tree is abot 40 feet from the porch door. I fired 4 cylinders of gluelits using this lubing procedure and never experiened any M/V drop or any problems. And had a BEAUTIFUL lube star on the muzzle to boot!
NOTE:a taste of oil with a bore mop in the cartridge case made pushing the gluelit into the case a breeze. I tried that because a couple of them just froze up about 1/2 way in and refused to cooperate. Lubing the gluelit itself would require casting in a mold for the sake of lube grooves and lubing much like WW boolits. The large .44 caliber glue sticks are a PERFECT fit in a .45 cal. handgun and I was trying to simplify the procedure. Shooters with calibers other than .45 will pretty much have to cast to caliber and lube.
Well, there ya' have it. That's my story and I'm stickin' to it.
I started by shooting dry gluelits untill I had a problem. Didn't take long. After about 4 cylinder loads, I had one stick in the barrel. I tried gently pushing it out with a dowel, but no soap. A shot of WD-40 from both directions solved that and it came right out.
I cleaned my .45 Colt New Service revolver then ran a fairly long patch('bout 18") through the bore with a moderate application of high grade 30 weight air compressor oil. Nothing but the best for my Colt! I immediately noticed a significant increase in M/V and bullet energy. I blew a hole in a plastic patio chair! By the time I got to the end of the remaining 5 shots in that cylinder load, the M/V had dropped off significantly. AHA! We need lubrication on every shot.
I hopped in me trusty Chevy S-10 and down to Wally-World we went. A teflon lined cookie sheet, 3 boxes of Gulf brand canning wax, a bottle of mineral oil, a Pyrex measuring cup and a partridge in a pear tree.
I melted 3 bars of the wax in the measuring cup in the nuke box. By the way, wax doesn't heat in a nuke box, but the glass measuring cup does. 5 minutes and the glass measuring cup is hot enough to not only melt the wax, but also hot enough to give you a really GOOD 2nd degree burn! Use gloves! I got 300 milliliters of melted wax and added 300 milliliters of mineral oil. I stirred the mineral oil into the hot wax and poured the whole batch into the cookie sheet. 1/2 hour later, it was cool enough to use as bullet(oops!) gluelit lube.
I oiled the inside of a .45 colt case with a bit of oil on a .45 caliber bore mop. I pushed a glue stick in the case as far as it would go, marked it with a sharpie and pulled it back out. I cut a plug of the glue stick about 125K short of the mark and pushed it back in with a small nut driver. This left a vacancy in the mouth of the case for a lube "cookie". I then pushed the case into the lube mixture that had set up by then. The lube "cookie" didn't want to stay in the case on lifting it from the bottom of the pan, so I had to kinda rake it up the side. Mighta of put a bit too much mineral oil in the mix. I pressed the cookie in the mouth of the case with my finger to kinda spread it out, grabbed my Colt and headed for the south porch.
I kept both eyes open and was barely able to see the cookie disintegrating in the air. No visual of the gluelit. I hit a laurel tree and the gluelit bounced back so far that it hit the side of the house. By the way, the tree is abot 40 feet from the porch door. I fired 4 cylinders of gluelits using this lubing procedure and never experiened any M/V drop or any problems. And had a BEAUTIFUL lube star on the muzzle to boot!
NOTE:a taste of oil with a bore mop in the cartridge case made pushing the gluelit into the case a breeze. I tried that because a couple of them just froze up about 1/2 way in and refused to cooperate. Lubing the gluelit itself would require casting in a mold for the sake of lube grooves and lubing much like WW boolits. The large .44 caliber glue sticks are a PERFECT fit in a .45 cal. handgun and I was trying to simplify the procedure. Shooters with calibers other than .45 will pretty much have to cast to caliber and lube.
Well, there ya' have it. That's my story and I'm stickin' to it.
Gluelits casting procedure
It took a little bit of experimenting, but here's where I landed.
I start by spraying the mold LIGHTLY with WD-40. The primary areas of interest are the cavity and both sides of the sprue plate. If you notice any excess of spray, dab it off with a Q-tip or the like. Excess lube will accumulate in the cavity and cause dimples in the cast. Like Brylcream, a little dab'll do ya'.
Close the sprue plate on the mold and stick the gun nozzle in the sprue plate hole. When you start pumping the glue into the cavity, get it in there fast. You can only push the gun so fast, but don't mess around and DON'T stop in the middle of an injection. If you do, just figure that one's a failed cast. Keep a tight grip on the mold handles and keep a light pressure on the sprue plate with the nozzle of the gun. When the cavity fills, you'll feel the glue trying to back the gun nozzle away from the mold. Let the gun nozzle back out with the hydraulic pressure and hit the gun AGAIN. You'll need a LARGE sprue on the sprue plate to avoid a suck-back cavity in the gluelit. I found that a sprue about 1/2" in diameter and about 1/4" high works well. Set the gun down and hold the mold level for a minute or so. You can actually see the excess glue being sucked into the cavity because of the cast cooling and shrinking. Whe the suck-back stops, the sprue is set up enough that it won't drip. Dip the mold in a coffee can half full of cool water and slosh it around. This reduces the temperature of the cast quickly and enables you to remove the gluelit almost immediately.
Swing the sprue plate open just as you would in casting a lead boolit. Pick the sprue off the plate with a tweezer or hemostat. This is easily done IF you lubed the sprue plate. Open the mold slowly. The gluelit is still soft at this point and I found that it helps to dunk the open mold in the water again at this point to remove the last of the remaining heat in the gluelit. Touch test the gluelit for hardness. After a few tries, you'll figure out just what it needs to feels like to pull the cast from the cavity without distorting or damaging the cast.
If you hold the gluelit up infront of a bright light, you can see through it just like looking at an X-ray. If there's a suck-back cavity in the back of the cast, you'll see it very clearly. It'll be shaped like a light bulb. If you're a purist, you'll decom that one and use more glue in the sprue. If this doesn't matter, lay it aside to cool and cure and go again.
You'll have to experiment with how often to lube the cavity. I'm finding that every other cast is about right, but this may vary from mold to mold and user to user.
Avoid handling the gluelits until they are CURED. This should be about an hour or so. They'll harden and turn milky like the base material is in stick form.
Next step for R&D is gluelit lubing. This ain't as simple as you might think. However, if anybody has any CONCRETE evidence to contribute, please do so. As for "what if you........", keep in mind the physics requirements here are beyond a window that nobody has ever looked through.
See y'all soon. I'm knockin' off an' goin' shootin' for awhile.
Jim
[more comments in the thread]
I start by spraying the mold LIGHTLY with WD-40. The primary areas of interest are the cavity and both sides of the sprue plate. If you notice any excess of spray, dab it off with a Q-tip or the like. Excess lube will accumulate in the cavity and cause dimples in the cast. Like Brylcream, a little dab'll do ya'.
Close the sprue plate on the mold and stick the gun nozzle in the sprue plate hole. When you start pumping the glue into the cavity, get it in there fast. You can only push the gun so fast, but don't mess around and DON'T stop in the middle of an injection. If you do, just figure that one's a failed cast. Keep a tight grip on the mold handles and keep a light pressure on the sprue plate with the nozzle of the gun. When the cavity fills, you'll feel the glue trying to back the gun nozzle away from the mold. Let the gun nozzle back out with the hydraulic pressure and hit the gun AGAIN. You'll need a LARGE sprue on the sprue plate to avoid a suck-back cavity in the gluelit. I found that a sprue about 1/2" in diameter and about 1/4" high works well. Set the gun down and hold the mold level for a minute or so. You can actually see the excess glue being sucked into the cavity because of the cast cooling and shrinking. Whe the suck-back stops, the sprue is set up enough that it won't drip. Dip the mold in a coffee can half full of cool water and slosh it around. This reduces the temperature of the cast quickly and enables you to remove the gluelit almost immediately.
Swing the sprue plate open just as you would in casting a lead boolit. Pick the sprue off the plate with a tweezer or hemostat. This is easily done IF you lubed the sprue plate. Open the mold slowly. The gluelit is still soft at this point and I found that it helps to dunk the open mold in the water again at this point to remove the last of the remaining heat in the gluelit. Touch test the gluelit for hardness. After a few tries, you'll figure out just what it needs to feels like to pull the cast from the cavity without distorting or damaging the cast.
If you hold the gluelit up infront of a bright light, you can see through it just like looking at an X-ray. If there's a suck-back cavity in the back of the cast, you'll see it very clearly. It'll be shaped like a light bulb. If you're a purist, you'll decom that one and use more glue in the sprue. If this doesn't matter, lay it aside to cool and cure and go again.
You'll have to experiment with how often to lube the cavity. I'm finding that every other cast is about right, but this may vary from mold to mold and user to user.
Avoid handling the gluelits until they are CURED. This should be about an hour or so. They'll harden and turn milky like the base material is in stick form.
Next step for R&D is gluelit lubing. This ain't as simple as you might think. However, if anybody has any CONCRETE evidence to contribute, please do so. As for "what if you........", keep in mind the physics requirements here are beyond a window that nobody has ever looked through.
See y'all soon. I'm knockin' off an' goin' shootin' for awhile.
Jim
[more comments in the thread]
Indoor Shooting Training Devices
-Take your gun out of the shooting range limits
-Now you can shoot at home any time any day
-Teach your wife & kids how to handle a weapon safely
-Train, plink and play with your gun for peanuts
-Now you can shoot at home any time any day
-Teach your wife & kids how to handle a weapon safely
-Train, plink and play with your gun for peanuts
Thursday, January 22, 2009
Casting and Mold Making
SILOCONE AS A CASTING (as opposed to molding) MATERIAL
Silicone isn't always used to make molds, sometimes it is the final product. It is a desirable material for some applications because of chemical inertness and high temperature tolerance.
Chemical inertness means nothing sticks to it or grows on it and it keeps its suface qualities. This makes it "biocompatible" and thus silicone castings are used extensivly in medical devices and in food-contact situations.
Heat tolerance of 480F (250C) puts silicone in a class by itself among elastomers. Silicone can be used for high temperature gaskets and seals, and wherever you need a rubbery thing that will get hot. The electrically shielded heating pad being cast at right is an example.
Casting silicone is easy: since it sticks to nothing (except other silicone) you can use just about anything as the mold
Silicone isn't always used to make molds, sometimes it is the final product. It is a desirable material for some applications because of chemical inertness and high temperature tolerance.
Chemical inertness means nothing sticks to it or grows on it and it keeps its suface qualities. This makes it "biocompatible" and thus silicone castings are used extensivly in medical devices and in food-contact situations.
Heat tolerance of 480F (250C) puts silicone in a class by itself among elastomers. Silicone can be used for high temperature gaskets and seals, and wherever you need a rubbery thing that will get hot. The electrically shielded heating pad being cast at right is an example.
Casting silicone is easy: since it sticks to nothing (except other silicone) you can use just about anything as the mold
C&R Wax Bullets
won't shatter on impact - they flatten like a lead bullet
clean in the bore
can be used with a powder charge, not just shotshell primers
approved for World Fast Draw and Cowboy Fast Draw competitions
bullets available in .38, .44 & .45 caliber, or cap & ball bullets in .44CB caliber (.451 diameter)
What are wax bullets? Wax bullets are exactly what they sound like - a bullet made of a wax compound. They may be used for Fast Draw competition, or simply as a cheap and easy way to practice with your single or double action revolver.
In Fast Draw, wax bullets are often loaded into the shell just prior to going onto the shooting line. The bullet is simply pressed into place with your fingers, then a shotshell primer is placed in the shell's specially counter-sunk primer pocket. Because of the ease of loading the wax bullet as compared to the process involved with creating a blank, many Fast Draw shooters practice with nothing but wax bullets. This also increases the skill of the shooter because of the increased accuracy required when shooting wax.
For pistol practice, many people simply use normal shells with regular pistol primers. These make for great close-range shooting practice.
If you're competing in Fast Draw, practicing Cowboy Action Shooting, or simply training with your revolver, C&R Wax Bullets are an inexpensive and simple way to go.
Please check out our Frequently Asked Questions page for more information.
$25.00 per Thousand in the U.S.
This price INCLUDES all shipping costs
$20.00 Per Thousand outside the U.S.
Shipping is extra
Please e-mail for quotes on shipping outside of the U.S.
(All fund in US$)
TO ORDER WAX BULLETS ON-LINE
U.S.A. orders can
pay by credit card
through PayPal:
$25.00 per 1,000
(This price INCLUDES
all shipping costs)
.38 caliber
.44 caliber
.45 caliber
.44 caliber
Cap & Ball
(.451 diam.)
Non U.S.A. orders
paid by credit card
through PayPal:
Please contact us to
establish total price
including shipping, then
fill in details using
PayPal button below.
Please remember to
include caliber, number
of bullets and total
price including shipping.
Overseas payments can be via electronic transfer
Any orders wishing to pay
by check or money order:
Make payable and send to:
C & R Thielke
P. O. Box 653
Canyon City, OR
97820
If paying by check or money order please send payment to above address and include: Name, mailing address, phone number, e-mail address, caliber (.38, .44 or .45 for regular bullets, .44CB for cap & ball), and check or money order for $25.00 per thousand (U.S. orders), which includes postage (1,000 = $25.00, 2,000 = $50.00, 3,000 = $75.00, etc.).
OTHER CONTACT INFORMATION
E-mail: oregondrifter@centurytel.net
Telephone: 541-575-4241
(between 8:00AM & 5:00PM Pacific Time, thank you)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Shells for Wax Bullets
50 shells for $35, smaller amounts for $1.50 each
(Shipping & Handling included in the USA)
These are regular shells drilled out and counter-sunk to accept shotshell primers.
The primers can be dropped in and removed without any special tool.
These shells are for use in revolvers only.
TO ORDER WAX BULLET SHELLS ON-LINE
50 shells for $35
U.S.A. orders can
pay by credit card
through PayPal:
.38 Special
.357 Magnum
.44 Special
.44 Magnum
.45 Long Colt
$35.00 per 50 shells
(includes shipping) or $1.50 per shell
U.S.A. orders can
pay by credit card
through PayPal:
.38 Special
.357 Magnum
.44 Special
.44 Magnum
.45 Long Colt
$1.50 per shell
(includes shipping,
enter quantity on
payment screen) Non U.S.A. orders
paid by credit card
through PayPal:
Please contact us to
establish total price
including shipping, then
fill in details using
PayPal button below.
Please remember to
include caliber, number
of shells and total
price including shipping.
or
Contact C & R Thielke: 541-575-4241
(between 8:00AM & 5:00PM Pacific Time, thank you)
Note: We do not drill any semi-automatic shells because they will not function properly.
Please check out our Frequently Asked Questions page for more information.
clean in the bore
can be used with a powder charge, not just shotshell primers
approved for World Fast Draw and Cowboy Fast Draw competitions
bullets available in .38, .44 & .45 caliber, or cap & ball bullets in .44CB caliber (.451 diameter)
What are wax bullets? Wax bullets are exactly what they sound like - a bullet made of a wax compound. They may be used for Fast Draw competition, or simply as a cheap and easy way to practice with your single or double action revolver.
In Fast Draw, wax bullets are often loaded into the shell just prior to going onto the shooting line. The bullet is simply pressed into place with your fingers, then a shotshell primer is placed in the shell's specially counter-sunk primer pocket. Because of the ease of loading the wax bullet as compared to the process involved with creating a blank, many Fast Draw shooters practice with nothing but wax bullets. This also increases the skill of the shooter because of the increased accuracy required when shooting wax.
For pistol practice, many people simply use normal shells with regular pistol primers. These make for great close-range shooting practice.
If you're competing in Fast Draw, practicing Cowboy Action Shooting, or simply training with your revolver, C&R Wax Bullets are an inexpensive and simple way to go.
Please check out our Frequently Asked Questions page for more information.
$25.00 per Thousand in the U.S.
This price INCLUDES all shipping costs
$20.00 Per Thousand outside the U.S.
Shipping is extra
Please e-mail for quotes on shipping outside of the U.S.
(All fund in US$)
TO ORDER WAX BULLETS ON-LINE
U.S.A. orders can
pay by credit card
through PayPal:
$25.00 per 1,000
(This price INCLUDES
all shipping costs)
.38 caliber
.44 caliber
.45 caliber
.44 caliber
Cap & Ball
(.451 diam.)
Non U.S.A. orders
paid by credit card
through PayPal:
Please contact us to
establish total price
including shipping, then
fill in details using
PayPal button below.
Please remember to
include caliber, number
of bullets and total
price including shipping.
Overseas payments can be via electronic transfer
Any orders wishing to pay
by check or money order:
Make payable and send to:
C & R Thielke
P. O. Box 653
Canyon City, OR
97820
If paying by check or money order please send payment to above address and include: Name, mailing address, phone number, e-mail address, caliber (.38, .44 or .45 for regular bullets, .44CB for cap & ball), and check or money order for $25.00 per thousand (U.S. orders), which includes postage (1,000 = $25.00, 2,000 = $50.00, 3,000 = $75.00, etc.).
OTHER CONTACT INFORMATION
E-mail: oregondrifter@centurytel.net
Telephone: 541-575-4241
(between 8:00AM & 5:00PM Pacific Time, thank you)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Shells for Wax Bullets
50 shells for $35, smaller amounts for $1.50 each
(Shipping & Handling included in the USA)
These are regular shells drilled out and counter-sunk to accept shotshell primers.
The primers can be dropped in and removed without any special tool.
These shells are for use in revolvers only.
TO ORDER WAX BULLET SHELLS ON-LINE
50 shells for $35
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Note: We do not drill any semi-automatic shells because they will not function properly.
Please check out our Frequently Asked Questions page for more information.
Rushmore Ammunition
Another wax bullet maker.
.25 30 32 38 and 45
Recommend (and sell) Rio 209 shotshell primers
.25 30 32 38 and 45
Recommend (and sell) Rio 209 shotshell primers
Wednesday, January 21, 2009
DRAFT: Wax Bullets, Rubber Bullets (Glue Too
For whatever reason, I'm still on a quest for a 5.7x28 "gallery round." The idea is to provide a relatively quiet, [i]less[/i] dangerous load that might open up some training options and opportunities. Cycling the weapon's action is not a requirement for this application.
Another thread in this sub-forum has looked at 22 caliber pellets and lightweight cast lead bullets.
"Red Jet" was one brand of wax bullets way back, marketed by CCI but made by Sampson Precision, Costa Mesa, CA
Speer makes 9mm/.357 and .44/.45 plastic bullets and cases.
Meister makes "X-Ring" rubber bullets in .38, .44, and .45 calibers ( http://www.meisterbullets.com/asccustompages/products.asp?cartID=&affID=&categoryid=45&navParent=0 )
Wax and parafin are pretty commonly used.
The common theme seems to be larger caliber, straight-walled cases.
So, what about 22 caliber for the 5.7x28?
Wax is probably out, unless it's strong enough to stand up to the feeding cycle.
The trick of
Crayons
Paraffin: Candle Wax (melts at 135 or 145 (or higher) degrees)
Jewelers Wax (ferriswax.com)
Paraffin: Canning Wax, Baker's Wax (melts at 120)
Carnuba (melts at 180-187)
Surfboard Wax
Beeswax Melts at 145 or higher
Hot glue is actually a thermoplastic adhesive.
Ths Faux Wax Sealing Kit may be useful for boolit casting. http://www.glu-stix.com/shop/page/product_detail/Product/30fa1672a89905196899ec47e3f2156e.html
Here's another http://www.letterseals.com/fauxsealingwaxsticks.aspx?gclid=CJvO5sWeoZgCFRwDagoddmh2Aw
Another thread in this sub-forum has looked at 22 caliber pellets and lightweight cast lead bullets.
"Red Jet" was one brand of wax bullets way back, marketed by CCI but made by Sampson Precision, Costa Mesa, CA
Speer makes 9mm/.357 and .44/.45 plastic bullets and cases.
Meister makes "X-Ring" rubber bullets in .38, .44, and .45 calibers ( http://www.meisterbullets.com/asccustompages/products.asp?cartID=&affID=&categoryid=45&navParent=0 )
Wax and parafin are pretty commonly used.
The common theme seems to be larger caliber, straight-walled cases.
So, what about 22 caliber for the 5.7x28?
Wax is probably out, unless it's strong enough to stand up to the feeding cycle.
The trick of
Crayons
Paraffin: Candle Wax (melts at 135 or 145 (or higher) degrees)
Jewelers Wax (ferriswax.com)
Paraffin: Canning Wax, Baker's Wax (melts at 120)
Carnuba (melts at 180-187)
Surfboard Wax
Beeswax Melts at 145 or higher
Hot glue is actually a thermoplastic adhesive.
Ths Faux Wax Sealing Kit may be useful for boolit casting. http://www.glu-stix.com/shop/page/product_detail/Product/30fa1672a89905196899ec47e3f2156e.html
Here's another http://www.letterseals.com/fauxsealingwaxsticks.aspx?gclid=CJvO5sWeoZgCFRwDagoddmh2Aw
Jewelry Waxes
The Kindt-Collins Company LLC is a true world leader in the manufacture of Industrial and Specialty Waxes. We also offer an extensive Pattern Shop Supplies product line and Kindt-Collins is also a leading one-stop source for precision sand castings.
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An uncompromising commitment to quality and incremental improvement
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If we are not currently providing your wax needs, pattern shop supplies or sand castings, we would like the opportunity to earn your business. One call is all it takes.
Contact us today and discover what demanding customers around the world already know…Kindt-Collins is your one-stop source for the best in quality, product selection/support and bottom line value.
Despite our diverse product offerings, there are several constants you can always count on from The Kindt-Collins Company LLC…
An uncompromising commitment to quality and incremental improvement
Unmatched dedication to customer service
We stand by our word
Fair and honest dealings
If we are not currently providing your wax needs, pattern shop supplies or sand castings, we would like the opportunity to earn your business. One call is all it takes.
Contact us today and discover what demanding customers around the world already know…Kindt-Collins is your one-stop source for the best in quality, product selection/support and bottom line value.
JEWELRY MAKING CASTING WAX FERRIS FILE A WAX BARS X1/2 LB GREEN (melting point)
Used for making models to be reproduced by the lost wax casting process. They can be sawed, filed or carved. Will stand rough handling and will not soften in your hands. Available in three degrees of hardness, designated by color, and in a variety of shapes. Green: Cannot be flexed Approximate melting Point is 240F (116 C). Purple: Some flexibility. Approximate melting Point is 240F (116 C). Blue: Will bend 90 in 1/8" (3.2 mm) thickness. Approximate melting Point is 240F (116 C). 3-1/2" x 3-1/2" x 1-3/8".
What can I do with old, used crayons? (melting point)
Crayola offers many craft ideas on our sites, including some where crayons are melted. We do have a warning note in these techniques that states care should be exercised when melting Crayola Crayons and that irritating fumes can be released if heated at a high temperature. Our crayons have a melting point between 128-147 degrees Fahrenheit and they will begin to soften at about 105 degrees Fahrenheit. For more information, please visit the Art Techniques section of our site.
Wax / Glue Bullets
Short Thread:
http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?t=81955
Long Thread
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=17577
http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?t=81955
Long Thread
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=17577
Century Spring Corp
Stock Spring Orders
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Custom Springs
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35 Thousand Designs Available!
Tuesday, January 20, 2009
Daystate Rangemaster FAC
Caliber Quantity Weight Length Nose Shape
.22 250 29 grains 0.430" Dome
The Rangemaster's long straight design shoots efficiently and accurately with excellent downrange ballistics.
$32.95
.22 250 29 grains 0.430" Dome
The Rangemaster's long straight design shoots efficiently and accurately with excellent downrange ballistics.
$32.95
Convert-A-Pell: Any good?
by B.B. Pelletier
Let's look at something way out there, as far as mainstream airgunning goes. It's called Convert-A-Pell. According to the research I just did, it's sold direct off the internet. I'll tell you everything I know by the end of this posting.
What is Convert-A-Pell?
Airgunners are as curious as cats. They are always thinking of things that relate to airguns, so it's no surprise that someone thought of powering a pellet with a primer! Actually, this method of propulsion dates back to about 1840, when the first experiments that used percussion caps and very small lead balls were performed. They quickly evolved into a percussion cap that had a ball stuck in it, which was the grandfather of the rimfire cartridge. So this has been done before - many times. Convert-A-Pell is just a modern adaptation of an old process, with an interesting twist.
The "Convert" part is what's interesting
With the Convert-A-Pell system, you can adapt a firearm to shoot pellets. You get a barrel for a specific model firearm, like a S&W 586, that attaches to the revolver barrel tightly. It does not injure the rifling in any way, because the insert tube is made of brass. You also get six brass "cartridges" that accept lead pellets at one end and a large pistol primer at the other. The advertising says you will get groups of one-inch or less at 15 to 20 feet. It also says a handgun will get about 500 f.p.s.
Airgun Letter tested one with poor results
Back in 1997, Tom Gaylord tested a Convert-A-Pell in a S&W 686 6" stainless revolver. He had the following remarks:
Accuracy was 3 to 6 inches for five shots at 15 feet.
Velocity ranged from 293 f.p.s. to 375 f.p.s. (He used both heavy diabolos and round balls).
Velocity spread was high - 80 f.p.s. with balls and 50 f.p.s. with pellets.
Noise was louder than a powerful CO2 pistol
It took a lot of work to load each cartridge. Seating depth was essential to the best accuracy.
Although the primer flashholes were bored out, the primers still sometimes backed out, tying up the gun's action
The gun needed nearly as much cleaning after shooting just primers as it would have with loaded .357 cartridges. The only thing that didn't happen was bore leading.
I tried them in an M1911A1
In 2002 I tried this system in an M1911A1 .45 ACP pistol. I didn't have the action hang up problem, because the 1911 doesn't work like a revolver, but all the other problems were there. Accuracy in my test may have been slightly better, say 2" to 4" at 15 feet, but it was still nothing to write home about. I didn't have a chronograph to test velocity.
And, yet, they persist!
What amazes me is that this system is still on the market. After all these years, it should have gone away, which makes me wonder whether Tom or I gave it a good test. I scanned the internet for info, and here's what I found. For starters, the company seems to have changed hands at least once. The current company seems to have only a website with a phone number, but their last site update was in November 2005. That makes me believe they are still viable. However, they have no prices on their website, and that's never a good sign.
I tried to find actual test reports on the system but there isn't much. I did find some mentions on forums that suggest the .22 centerfire system is not too bad. In a single-shot action such as a rolling block, there would be zero functioning problems.
After reading about the product on their website, it looks like the product may have been updated since Tom and I tested it. I mention this because I am not opposed to retesting one, if there is enough interest. By enough interest, I don't mean one or two persistent people, but a larger crowd.
Is this an airgun? Definitely NOT! Does it have to do with airgunning? Probably, just because it uses pellets. Are we interested? You tell me.
posted by B.B. Pelletier @ 4:30 AM 38 comments
38 Comments:
At March 31, 2006 11:54 AM, Anonymous said...
Sorry for the out of context question but can't find how to ask you a new subject question.
I have purchased a Beta Chrony, and I understand what it is telling me about the velocity and turning that into footpounds. But, what is it telling me about the different pellets I am testing. Should I be able to select a best pellet for a certain airgun? The highest velocity and the highest footpounds are never the same pellet. And standard deviation, would that mean, with the lowest reading, that a pellet is more uniform. Thank You, F Nash
At March 31, 2006 2:28 PM, Anonymous said...
BB i know this is off topic:
But can the TalonSS in 177 handle?
The 16 grain er jin pellet in 177 cal?
At March 31, 2006 2:32 PM, B.B. Pelletier said...
Eun Jin,
I don't really know how far it will be accurate, but out to 30 yards, the SS can handle the 28-grain .22 caliber Eun Jin just fine. I have no experience with a .177 because I don't own an AirForcfe rifle in that caliber, nor does anyone I know who lives close.
B.B.
At March 31, 2006 2:33 PM, Anonymous said...
BB,
I read that the weihrauch hw97k's spring is square,Is that true?
And what difference does it make?
I read that the round spring gets mor power out of the rifle,but I dont know scince this could change accuracy.Can you explain and if you want a post about the different tipes of spring forms.I read that there were round,square and rectangular springs.
CF-X guy
At March 31, 2006 2:34 PM, Anonymous said...
I mean that I wanted the post,sorry
CF-X guy
At March 31, 2006 2:38 PM, B.B. Pelletier said...
F Nash,
Well, your chronograph can tell you that a heavy pellet is more powerful than a light pellet in a CO2 and pneumatic gun, but just the opposite in a springer.
The best pellet for any airgun is always the most accurate. Among pellets of equal accuracy, choose either power or velocity as the feature you want.
Standard deviation is a statistic that tells us generally how close to the average the extremes are. With a smaller velocity spread, you should have better accuracy at extreme distances, but it doesn't always work out that way.
B.B.
At March 31, 2006 2:42 PM, B.B. Pelletier said...
CF-X guy,
By square I assume you mean made from square-section wire. Because a square spring isn't going to be very good in a round powerplant.
Webley pistols used to have square section spring wire, which at one time was thought to pack more power into a confined space. Really all it does is fail sooner, since the corners of the wire are all stress points.
It might be fun to do a post on spring types.
B.B.
At March 31, 2006 3:04 PM, Anonymous said...
BB,
What you wrote is exacly what I read.Still,Is it true that the hw97 has one like that?
CF-X guy
At March 31, 2006 3:27 PM, Anonymous said...
BB,
The convert-a-pell system seems to be more of a novelty than a real shooting system. The accuracy that you and Tom got from the system, really kills it for me. Never mind the cleaning. The only positive practice for the shooter that I can see is, practicing trigger pull. I'm happy to shoot pellets out of my airguns and conventenal ammo out of my firearms.
Jason
At March 31, 2006 4:36 PM, B.B. Pelletier said...
Jason,
That was my take on it, too, but the thing seems to have lasted a long time. Could we have missed something? That's why I left the door open. I will wait awhile and see who asks for it.
Thanks,
B.B.
At March 31, 2006 4:39 PM, B.B. Pelletier said...
CF-X guy,
I will look into the HW 97 having a mainspring with square section wire.
B.B.
At March 31, 2006 6:02 PM, Anonymous said...
BB,
Is the convert-a- pell system that is sold currently the same exact design as the models both you and Tom tested? Perhaps, they are of a new, or modified design. While I won't be buying one of theese systems tomorrow, I would be interested to see if the product has possibly been improved.
Thanks,
Jason
At March 31, 2006 6:45 PM, B.B. Pelletier said...
Jason,
When I said it looks like the product has been updated, they now mention O-rings in the primer pocket. There were no O-rings in the model I tested, and Tom didn't mention them, either, In fact he noted that the primers had to be deprimed the same as with a regular cartridge, not the easy way they now describe it. So I do believe they have updated something.
I just re-read the Q&A and they seem to have a lot more information about the product than they did when I tested it. So maybe it does work better using their instructions. I'm certainly willing to give them a second chance.
B.B.
At March 31, 2006 7:59 PM, Anonymous said...
I noticed that the .22 center fire kit doesn’t come with a barrel so they must be expecting you to use .22 pellets didn’t you once say they are actually smaller than .22 cal bullets for a firearm.
At March 31, 2006 8:32 PM, Anonymous said...
BB,
I just read on the convert-a-pell website that the 22 centerfire models use 209 shotshell primers(except 22 hornet, they use large rifle primers). It also reads, and I quote "exceptional groups from 20 to 60 feet". Ofcoarse that might mean nothing, as what is the standard for "exceptional groups". Like the other reader posted before me, it mentions nothing of a barrel insert to deal with the projectile diameter differences between a .22 cal pellet and a .224 bullet. What type of primer did the 1911 model you tested use? Just curious. Thanks,
Jason
At April 01, 2006 5:54 AM, B.B. Pelletier said...
Jason,
All handgun shells use a large pistol primer. I think it correlates to the strength of the firing pin. While a revolver has a lot of striker force, a pistol doesn't, because of the lack of striker mass. So they designed the system for the weakest link. At least that is my theory.
B.B.
At April 01, 2006 6:00 AM, B.B. Pelletier said...
.22 bullet diameters,
Yes, the difference between possible .22 firearm bullet diameters (0.222 to 0.224) and a .22 pellet (0.218) is significant. That would appear to be a design flaw in this system.
I was ready to point a finger at that on my own test, however, the insert barrel was 0.177, as far as I know.
They now specify using a Benjamin Sheridan Diabolo pellet, which is a Crosman Premier by another name. So it's evident that someone has done a lot more testing with this system and determined that the harder pellet is required to contain the force of the primer - especially when using number 209 shotgun primers.
B.B.
B.B.
At April 01, 2006 4:51 PM, Anonymous said...
BB,
Can you put a sling on the hw97 without dameging the wood?
CF-X guy
At April 02, 2006 7:49 AM, B.B. Pelletier said...
CF-X guy,
Check around. There used to be a front sling swivel that would attach to the underlever. Beeman carried it. I believe it came from Uncle Mikes.
B.B.
At April 02, 2006 1:14 PM, Anonymous said...
I dont think the convert a pell system is worth it,I think that it is just best to shoot bullets in firearms and shoot pellets in airguns.Unless the beging to make pellets for firearms and bullets for airguns it isnt worth it.By the way they do sell bullets in the 35 cal to 50 cal range here at pyramid air,they are called "pellets" but they are definately bullets,I think they are just called that so it isnt confused with a regular firearm ammo Jed
At April 02, 2006 1:18 PM, Jed said...
I would like to a test on the crosman phantom,hopefully as soon as it comes out,I was thinking f buying the ben/sheridan legacy but I am waiting to see what the phantom is like when it comes out first.
At April 02, 2006 1:20 PM, Anonymous said...
well off topic but which one if you had a choice would you pick a gamo 1250 .22cal or a beeman kodiak .22cal? I know that beeman kodiak in .25 is hard hitting but regardless out of the .22's which one would put up with practice and still get the point across to anything it hits at say even 25yards? The reason I ask is because I don't beleive clever marketing, just opinion's in experience.
Thanks
Robert
At April 02, 2006 1:24 PM, jed said...
I have just really started my intrest in airguns I have been surprised that they can be alot more powerfull than I thought even though they run on highly compressed air,apperently air compressed at very high levels can really send a projectile flying alot faster then I relized before I got my intrest in airguns.I have a crosman powermaster 66 and I thought this was basically the limit to power when it came to airguns but I soon found out that was not the case!
At April 02, 2006 2:51 PM, B.B. Pelletier said...
Jed,
I saw and held the Crosman Phantom at the SHOT Show. It's a big airgun with a strangely shaped synthetic stock. It reminds me of a Gamo Shadow and I imagine the performance is about in the same ballpark.
It will be awhile before I test one.
B.B.
At April 02, 2006 2:57 PM, B.B. Pelletier said...
Gamo 1250 vs Beeman Kodiak/Webley Patriot,
Well, you picked the two most difficult-cocking spring guns available! I doubt you will want to shoot either one more than 50 times per session.
Both are accurate beyond 25 yards, but both require BUCKETS of technique to shoot accurately! They are both very sensitive to hold. It's been awhile since I tested a 1250, but I remember it being somewhat less hold sensitive than the Kodiak/Patriot.
You definitely don't need airguns this powerful to kill small game out to 50 yards. But if you want to take woodchucks at that distance, either one of these would be good.
B.B.
At April 03, 2006 4:03 PM, JDB said...
BB,
The convert a pell reminds me of the "primer powered rubber bullets" I bought years ago. The current model is "X-Ring Rubber Bullets" sold at Dillon Precision among others.
The rubber bullets look like diablo pellets. Mine are in .38/.357. (other sizes .44, .45 are available) They are loaded in standard cases, that have the flash holes drilled out. Regular pistol primers are used. They operate in my revolver just fine.
Accuracy at 10m is acceptable for practice indoors, not too loud either. They are a little tedious to load, have to eject primers, reprime, push in bullets. You have to shoot at a soft target backstop (cloth towels hung in a cardboard box) to keep them reuseable! They are a neat & fun way to shoot that iron collecting dust in the cabinet!!
I know these are not "airgun" related, but might intrest someone!
JDB
At April 03, 2006 6:59 PM, Ken said...
I would be interested in seeing a re-test or this system. Sounds as if some changes should have been made.
About 45 years ago I had a western style black plastic pistol with a metal barrel insert that fired cap pistol caps to launch a #6 lead shot. It was a lot of fun, but finally got broken. Does anyone know if anything like this is still available?
At April 03, 2006 7:25 PM, B.B. Pelletier said...
Ken,
I believe what you had was a Mendoza cap-firing BB gun. Was it plastic with a nickel plated finish?
Go to this blog page and see a different style of the same gun.
http://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2005/10/another-12-caliber-airgun.html
B.B.
At April 03, 2006 7:26 PM, B.B. Pelletier said...
JDB,
I have seen these things but never tried them. Does the projectile have a bomb-like fin for drag and stabilization?
B.B.
At April 03, 2006 10:31 PM, Anonymous said...
BB,
I want to tell you people what my experience is with the beeman kodiaks in the gamo cf-x.I read that the cf-x doesnt like heavy pellets.In my experience they were really accurate.Im not a very good shooter and got a 1 inch 5 group at 25 yards.I love this pellets.I dont know why they can be accurate in my cf-x and be un accurate on others.The pellets that arent accurate at long distances are the eun jin.But I got a mangosta(a type of squirrel we have in Puerto Rico that is bigger than a cat and has rabies) at 40 feet and I dont want to be discusting but I got him in the head and he made a big mess.It was a headshot so it was humainly done even though what happend.The kodiak has more penetration than the eun jin.I found that the kodiak vs eun jin test I did proved that when I shot the book the kodiak came through the other side,the eun jin did not but the eun jin hole was a mess.It made a slight difference in the middle of the book.But I guess the eun jin is supposed to make some sort of a punch.And props to the best cheapest pellet I can get,the daisy super point.They are very accurate in my cf-x and are $3.00 in my local store!!!!!!But the crossman copper heads are very unaccurate.I also tested the gamo magnum pellets wich appear to be pretty good.The beeman silver arrows are accurate at short distances and carry one heck of a punch.Those are the pellets that I have tested so far.Here in Puerto Rico the walmarts dont carry airguns nor pellets and I can only count on my local store.By the way,they are bringing the gamo rator wich ill be testing even though they wont be accurate I wanna make some noise!!!!!!!!!
CF-X guy
At April 04, 2006 8:42 AM, JDB said...
BB
The X-Ring rubber bullets look just like a wadcutter diablo pellet. Flat nose (slightly beveled, probably to allow better feeding in auto's) and hollow inside just like a pellet.
These things don't fly too fast, they can be stopped by 3 towels hanging in a box. I will shoot some over the chrono later today and let you know how they do.
Check out a picture here:
http://makarov.com/Makamutt/xring.htm
JDB
At April 04, 2006 9:00 AM, B.B. Pelletier said...
JDB,
Okay, this is news to me.
By the way - you sent me to the Makarov site. I just happen to be a Mak fan and I shoot one all the time. I have that website bookmarked for parts!
B.B.
At June 30, 2006 12:33 PM, Anonymous said...
Greetings,
I just ran across this site.
I am the current owner of Convert-A-Pell.
It seems there is some misinformation or confusion about the products.
Only the .22 centerfire rifle kits utilize a 209 shotgun primer. Only the .22 centerfire case has an o-ring in the head of the case to hold the primer in place.
As for the diameter of pellet verses .22 rifle bore. That is addressed as soon as the 209 primer is ignited. The skirt of the pellet is expanding and spreads to fill the bore as soon as it clears the case mouth.
I get very good accuracy for a 16" Contender in .223. I do not fire at the ranges some people use. My home range is just a bit over 50 feet and I get accuracy right at one inch.
I believe that time spent shooting is not deducted from my lifespan! I recieved a call from a gentleman that purchaced a centerfire rifle kit in .22-250 more than 25 years ago and claims he, in his own words, is shooting virtually a one hole grouop at 30 yards from a 26" barrel.
I do not keep any purchacing information on the website. It keeps the hackers off our back. There is an information e-mail link on the site for questions about the products and purchacing info. One less thing for us to worry about.
We recommend using Winchester Large Pistol primers for the handgun kits.
We also recommend Winchester 209 shotgun primers for the .22 centerfire rifle kits. I don't own any Winchester stock. They just happen to be the most consistent as far as size goes. I ream the handgun primer pockets to fit these primers and if other primers are used there could be fit problems.
As for the price of the handgun kits. They have been the same price for nearly 30 years -- $39.95.
Last and most important is that the Convert-A-Pell system is designed to allow the handgun shooter a method to practice sight, trigger and grip control in their own home, with a full sized firearm, without the need to make a trip to a shooting range. It is an excellent way to train new shooters. They get firearms training without being exposed to the noise and recoil of full bore ammunition. I like to say "Teach them to shoot without teaching them to flinch".
I thank you for the opportunity to respond and I enjoy you site.
R.
At September 28, 2006 7:08 PM, Jason said...
I have been playing with the 22-250 convert-a-pell system I my friend picked it up at the gun show and ever since i have been eddicted . I have a target set up in one end of my house. You wouldn't even know I was shooting if You went into the other room . Its nearly silent . The thing i like about it the most is the fact that the gun on a bench rest when the system is used correctly.
I put 5 pellets through the same hole at 50 feet . Then my wife tried it and put 3 through the same hole at 50 feet . the gun is a remington model 700 22-250 with a 4-9 power scope.
The same bench rest With my beemen . Reacts weird on a bench rest it won't group correctly on a rest . Shooting out of the rest it would do a 1 1/2 group at 50 feet .
The recoil from a piston air gun feels like it kicks back then kicks forward then back again befor the pellet even gets out of the gun. I think this causes it to be a little harder to shoot. It must have something going on because it has wrecked 2 of my scopes that worked fine on my 30-06 and 22-250.
Just to let you know it is fun in a bolt action high end 22 cal rifle like the 22-250 .
I am going to order the system for my AR15 and i will see wha i think .
At September 28, 2006 7:11 PM, Jason said...
BTW this is a diferent Jason .
I had to join this silly thing to post a comment. That sucked .
I dont thing i will ever use this thing again id anyone wants to ask me anything
E mail me at jasonseamans@yahoo.com
At September 29, 2006 6:52 AM, B.B. Pelletier said...
Jason and the happy shooter,
I have heard this comment before. It seems that the shooters who use the Convert-A-Pell in rifles experience better results than those who try it in pistols.
I think the Convert-A-Pell people were unaware that pellets are not the same size as centerfire and rimfires calibers, and they screwed up when they used .22 bore liners as barrels in the pistol kits. For some reason, the system works when the actual rifle barrel is used, but not when their bore liner barrels are employed.
B.B.
At October 25, 2006 2:21 PM, Anonymous said...
Convert-A-Pell handgun kits do not use .22 cal bore liners. They are .177. That is pretty damning evidence. Makes me wonder if you even tested a convert-a-pell kit. Might be you listened to someone else bad mouth the product and drew your own conclusions.
At October 25, 2006 2:46 PM, B.B. Pelletier said...
Sorry but mine was a .22. It fit a 586. And if it wasn't a bore liner, it was a pretty poor barrel!
I did this back in the last century, so that could explain the discrepency.
B.B.
Let's look at something way out there, as far as mainstream airgunning goes. It's called Convert-A-Pell. According to the research I just did, it's sold direct off the internet. I'll tell you everything I know by the end of this posting.
What is Convert-A-Pell?
Airgunners are as curious as cats. They are always thinking of things that relate to airguns, so it's no surprise that someone thought of powering a pellet with a primer! Actually, this method of propulsion dates back to about 1840, when the first experiments that used percussion caps and very small lead balls were performed. They quickly evolved into a percussion cap that had a ball stuck in it, which was the grandfather of the rimfire cartridge. So this has been done before - many times. Convert-A-Pell is just a modern adaptation of an old process, with an interesting twist.
The "Convert" part is what's interesting
With the Convert-A-Pell system, you can adapt a firearm to shoot pellets. You get a barrel for a specific model firearm, like a S&W 586, that attaches to the revolver barrel tightly. It does not injure the rifling in any way, because the insert tube is made of brass. You also get six brass "cartridges" that accept lead pellets at one end and a large pistol primer at the other. The advertising says you will get groups of one-inch or less at 15 to 20 feet. It also says a handgun will get about 500 f.p.s.
Airgun Letter tested one with poor results
Back in 1997, Tom Gaylord tested a Convert-A-Pell in a S&W 686 6" stainless revolver. He had the following remarks:
Accuracy was 3 to 6 inches for five shots at 15 feet.
Velocity ranged from 293 f.p.s. to 375 f.p.s. (He used both heavy diabolos and round balls).
Velocity spread was high - 80 f.p.s. with balls and 50 f.p.s. with pellets.
Noise was louder than a powerful CO2 pistol
It took a lot of work to load each cartridge. Seating depth was essential to the best accuracy.
Although the primer flashholes were bored out, the primers still sometimes backed out, tying up the gun's action
The gun needed nearly as much cleaning after shooting just primers as it would have with loaded .357 cartridges. The only thing that didn't happen was bore leading.
I tried them in an M1911A1
In 2002 I tried this system in an M1911A1 .45 ACP pistol. I didn't have the action hang up problem, because the 1911 doesn't work like a revolver, but all the other problems were there. Accuracy in my test may have been slightly better, say 2" to 4" at 15 feet, but it was still nothing to write home about. I didn't have a chronograph to test velocity.
And, yet, they persist!
What amazes me is that this system is still on the market. After all these years, it should have gone away, which makes me wonder whether Tom or I gave it a good test. I scanned the internet for info, and here's what I found. For starters, the company seems to have changed hands at least once. The current company seems to have only a website with a phone number, but their last site update was in November 2005. That makes me believe they are still viable. However, they have no prices on their website, and that's never a good sign.
I tried to find actual test reports on the system but there isn't much. I did find some mentions on forums that suggest the .22 centerfire system is not too bad. In a single-shot action such as a rolling block, there would be zero functioning problems.
After reading about the product on their website, it looks like the product may have been updated since Tom and I tested it. I mention this because I am not opposed to retesting one, if there is enough interest. By enough interest, I don't mean one or two persistent people, but a larger crowd.
Is this an airgun? Definitely NOT! Does it have to do with airgunning? Probably, just because it uses pellets. Are we interested? You tell me.
posted by B.B. Pelletier @ 4:30 AM 38 comments
38 Comments:
At March 31, 2006 11:54 AM, Anonymous said...
Sorry for the out of context question but can't find how to ask you a new subject question.
I have purchased a Beta Chrony, and I understand what it is telling me about the velocity and turning that into footpounds. But, what is it telling me about the different pellets I am testing. Should I be able to select a best pellet for a certain airgun? The highest velocity and the highest footpounds are never the same pellet. And standard deviation, would that mean, with the lowest reading, that a pellet is more uniform. Thank You, F Nash
At March 31, 2006 2:28 PM, Anonymous said...
BB i know this is off topic:
But can the TalonSS in 177 handle?
The 16 grain er jin pellet in 177 cal?
At March 31, 2006 2:32 PM, B.B. Pelletier said...
Eun Jin,
I don't really know how far it will be accurate, but out to 30 yards, the SS can handle the 28-grain .22 caliber Eun Jin just fine. I have no experience with a .177 because I don't own an AirForcfe rifle in that caliber, nor does anyone I know who lives close.
B.B.
At March 31, 2006 2:33 PM, Anonymous said...
BB,
I read that the weihrauch hw97k's spring is square,Is that true?
And what difference does it make?
I read that the round spring gets mor power out of the rifle,but I dont know scince this could change accuracy.Can you explain and if you want a post about the different tipes of spring forms.I read that there were round,square and rectangular springs.
CF-X guy
At March 31, 2006 2:34 PM, Anonymous said...
I mean that I wanted the post,sorry
CF-X guy
At March 31, 2006 2:38 PM, B.B. Pelletier said...
F Nash,
Well, your chronograph can tell you that a heavy pellet is more powerful than a light pellet in a CO2 and pneumatic gun, but just the opposite in a springer.
The best pellet for any airgun is always the most accurate. Among pellets of equal accuracy, choose either power or velocity as the feature you want.
Standard deviation is a statistic that tells us generally how close to the average the extremes are. With a smaller velocity spread, you should have better accuracy at extreme distances, but it doesn't always work out that way.
B.B.
At March 31, 2006 2:42 PM, B.B. Pelletier said...
CF-X guy,
By square I assume you mean made from square-section wire. Because a square spring isn't going to be very good in a round powerplant.
Webley pistols used to have square section spring wire, which at one time was thought to pack more power into a confined space. Really all it does is fail sooner, since the corners of the wire are all stress points.
It might be fun to do a post on spring types.
B.B.
At March 31, 2006 3:04 PM, Anonymous said...
BB,
What you wrote is exacly what I read.Still,Is it true that the hw97 has one like that?
CF-X guy
At March 31, 2006 3:27 PM, Anonymous said...
BB,
The convert-a-pell system seems to be more of a novelty than a real shooting system. The accuracy that you and Tom got from the system, really kills it for me. Never mind the cleaning. The only positive practice for the shooter that I can see is, practicing trigger pull. I'm happy to shoot pellets out of my airguns and conventenal ammo out of my firearms.
Jason
At March 31, 2006 4:36 PM, B.B. Pelletier said...
Jason,
That was my take on it, too, but the thing seems to have lasted a long time. Could we have missed something? That's why I left the door open. I will wait awhile and see who asks for it.
Thanks,
B.B.
At March 31, 2006 4:39 PM, B.B. Pelletier said...
CF-X guy,
I will look into the HW 97 having a mainspring with square section wire.
B.B.
At March 31, 2006 6:02 PM, Anonymous said...
BB,
Is the convert-a- pell system that is sold currently the same exact design as the models both you and Tom tested? Perhaps, they are of a new, or modified design. While I won't be buying one of theese systems tomorrow, I would be interested to see if the product has possibly been improved.
Thanks,
Jason
At March 31, 2006 6:45 PM, B.B. Pelletier said...
Jason,
When I said it looks like the product has been updated, they now mention O-rings in the primer pocket. There were no O-rings in the model I tested, and Tom didn't mention them, either, In fact he noted that the primers had to be deprimed the same as with a regular cartridge, not the easy way they now describe it. So I do believe they have updated something.
I just re-read the Q&A and they seem to have a lot more information about the product than they did when I tested it. So maybe it does work better using their instructions. I'm certainly willing to give them a second chance.
B.B.
At March 31, 2006 7:59 PM, Anonymous said...
I noticed that the .22 center fire kit doesn’t come with a barrel so they must be expecting you to use .22 pellets didn’t you once say they are actually smaller than .22 cal bullets for a firearm.
At March 31, 2006 8:32 PM, Anonymous said...
BB,
I just read on the convert-a-pell website that the 22 centerfire models use 209 shotshell primers(except 22 hornet, they use large rifle primers). It also reads, and I quote "exceptional groups from 20 to 60 feet". Ofcoarse that might mean nothing, as what is the standard for "exceptional groups". Like the other reader posted before me, it mentions nothing of a barrel insert to deal with the projectile diameter differences between a .22 cal pellet and a .224 bullet. What type of primer did the 1911 model you tested use? Just curious. Thanks,
Jason
At April 01, 2006 5:54 AM, B.B. Pelletier said...
Jason,
All handgun shells use a large pistol primer. I think it correlates to the strength of the firing pin. While a revolver has a lot of striker force, a pistol doesn't, because of the lack of striker mass. So they designed the system for the weakest link. At least that is my theory.
B.B.
At April 01, 2006 6:00 AM, B.B. Pelletier said...
.22 bullet diameters,
Yes, the difference between possible .22 firearm bullet diameters (0.222 to 0.224) and a .22 pellet (0.218) is significant. That would appear to be a design flaw in this system.
I was ready to point a finger at that on my own test, however, the insert barrel was 0.177, as far as I know.
They now specify using a Benjamin Sheridan Diabolo pellet, which is a Crosman Premier by another name. So it's evident that someone has done a lot more testing with this system and determined that the harder pellet is required to contain the force of the primer - especially when using number 209 shotgun primers.
B.B.
B.B.
At April 01, 2006 4:51 PM, Anonymous said...
BB,
Can you put a sling on the hw97 without dameging the wood?
CF-X guy
At April 02, 2006 7:49 AM, B.B. Pelletier said...
CF-X guy,
Check around. There used to be a front sling swivel that would attach to the underlever. Beeman carried it. I believe it came from Uncle Mikes.
B.B.
At April 02, 2006 1:14 PM, Anonymous said...
I dont think the convert a pell system is worth it,I think that it is just best to shoot bullets in firearms and shoot pellets in airguns.Unless the beging to make pellets for firearms and bullets for airguns it isnt worth it.By the way they do sell bullets in the 35 cal to 50 cal range here at pyramid air,they are called "pellets" but they are definately bullets,I think they are just called that so it isnt confused with a regular firearm ammo Jed
At April 02, 2006 1:18 PM, Jed said...
I would like to a test on the crosman phantom,hopefully as soon as it comes out,I was thinking f buying the ben/sheridan legacy but I am waiting to see what the phantom is like when it comes out first.
At April 02, 2006 1:20 PM, Anonymous said...
well off topic but which one if you had a choice would you pick a gamo 1250 .22cal or a beeman kodiak .22cal? I know that beeman kodiak in .25 is hard hitting but regardless out of the .22's which one would put up with practice and still get the point across to anything it hits at say even 25yards? The reason I ask is because I don't beleive clever marketing, just opinion's in experience.
Thanks
Robert
At April 02, 2006 1:24 PM, jed said...
I have just really started my intrest in airguns I have been surprised that they can be alot more powerfull than I thought even though they run on highly compressed air,apperently air compressed at very high levels can really send a projectile flying alot faster then I relized before I got my intrest in airguns.I have a crosman powermaster 66 and I thought this was basically the limit to power when it came to airguns but I soon found out that was not the case!
At April 02, 2006 2:51 PM, B.B. Pelletier said...
Jed,
I saw and held the Crosman Phantom at the SHOT Show. It's a big airgun with a strangely shaped synthetic stock. It reminds me of a Gamo Shadow and I imagine the performance is about in the same ballpark.
It will be awhile before I test one.
B.B.
At April 02, 2006 2:57 PM, B.B. Pelletier said...
Gamo 1250 vs Beeman Kodiak/Webley Patriot,
Well, you picked the two most difficult-cocking spring guns available! I doubt you will want to shoot either one more than 50 times per session.
Both are accurate beyond 25 yards, but both require BUCKETS of technique to shoot accurately! They are both very sensitive to hold. It's been awhile since I tested a 1250, but I remember it being somewhat less hold sensitive than the Kodiak/Patriot.
You definitely don't need airguns this powerful to kill small game out to 50 yards. But if you want to take woodchucks at that distance, either one of these would be good.
B.B.
At April 03, 2006 4:03 PM, JDB said...
BB,
The convert a pell reminds me of the "primer powered rubber bullets" I bought years ago. The current model is "X-Ring Rubber Bullets" sold at Dillon Precision among others.
The rubber bullets look like diablo pellets. Mine are in .38/.357. (other sizes .44, .45 are available) They are loaded in standard cases, that have the flash holes drilled out. Regular pistol primers are used. They operate in my revolver just fine.
Accuracy at 10m is acceptable for practice indoors, not too loud either. They are a little tedious to load, have to eject primers, reprime, push in bullets. You have to shoot at a soft target backstop (cloth towels hung in a cardboard box) to keep them reuseable! They are a neat & fun way to shoot that iron collecting dust in the cabinet!!
I know these are not "airgun" related, but might intrest someone!
JDB
At April 03, 2006 6:59 PM, Ken said...
I would be interested in seeing a re-test or this system. Sounds as if some changes should have been made.
About 45 years ago I had a western style black plastic pistol with a metal barrel insert that fired cap pistol caps to launch a #6 lead shot. It was a lot of fun, but finally got broken. Does anyone know if anything like this is still available?
At April 03, 2006 7:25 PM, B.B. Pelletier said...
Ken,
I believe what you had was a Mendoza cap-firing BB gun. Was it plastic with a nickel plated finish?
Go to this blog page and see a different style of the same gun.
http://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2005/10/another-12-caliber-airgun.html
B.B.
At April 03, 2006 7:26 PM, B.B. Pelletier said...
JDB,
I have seen these things but never tried them. Does the projectile have a bomb-like fin for drag and stabilization?
B.B.
At April 03, 2006 10:31 PM, Anonymous said...
BB,
I want to tell you people what my experience is with the beeman kodiaks in the gamo cf-x.I read that the cf-x doesnt like heavy pellets.In my experience they were really accurate.Im not a very good shooter and got a 1 inch 5 group at 25 yards.I love this pellets.I dont know why they can be accurate in my cf-x and be un accurate on others.The pellets that arent accurate at long distances are the eun jin.But I got a mangosta(a type of squirrel we have in Puerto Rico that is bigger than a cat and has rabies) at 40 feet and I dont want to be discusting but I got him in the head and he made a big mess.It was a headshot so it was humainly done even though what happend.The kodiak has more penetration than the eun jin.I found that the kodiak vs eun jin test I did proved that when I shot the book the kodiak came through the other side,the eun jin did not but the eun jin hole was a mess.It made a slight difference in the middle of the book.But I guess the eun jin is supposed to make some sort of a punch.And props to the best cheapest pellet I can get,the daisy super point.They are very accurate in my cf-x and are $3.00 in my local store!!!!!!But the crossman copper heads are very unaccurate.I also tested the gamo magnum pellets wich appear to be pretty good.The beeman silver arrows are accurate at short distances and carry one heck of a punch.Those are the pellets that I have tested so far.Here in Puerto Rico the walmarts dont carry airguns nor pellets and I can only count on my local store.By the way,they are bringing the gamo rator wich ill be testing even though they wont be accurate I wanna make some noise!!!!!!!!!
CF-X guy
At April 04, 2006 8:42 AM, JDB said...
BB
The X-Ring rubber bullets look just like a wadcutter diablo pellet. Flat nose (slightly beveled, probably to allow better feeding in auto's) and hollow inside just like a pellet.
These things don't fly too fast, they can be stopped by 3 towels hanging in a box. I will shoot some over the chrono later today and let you know how they do.
Check out a picture here:
http://makarov.com/Makamutt/xring.htm
JDB
At April 04, 2006 9:00 AM, B.B. Pelletier said...
JDB,
Okay, this is news to me.
By the way - you sent me to the Makarov site. I just happen to be a Mak fan and I shoot one all the time. I have that website bookmarked for parts!
B.B.
At June 30, 2006 12:33 PM, Anonymous said...
Greetings,
I just ran across this site.
I am the current owner of Convert-A-Pell.
It seems there is some misinformation or confusion about the products.
Only the .22 centerfire rifle kits utilize a 209 shotgun primer. Only the .22 centerfire case has an o-ring in the head of the case to hold the primer in place.
As for the diameter of pellet verses .22 rifle bore. That is addressed as soon as the 209 primer is ignited. The skirt of the pellet is expanding and spreads to fill the bore as soon as it clears the case mouth.
I get very good accuracy for a 16" Contender in .223. I do not fire at the ranges some people use. My home range is just a bit over 50 feet and I get accuracy right at one inch.
I believe that time spent shooting is not deducted from my lifespan! I recieved a call from a gentleman that purchaced a centerfire rifle kit in .22-250 more than 25 years ago and claims he, in his own words, is shooting virtually a one hole grouop at 30 yards from a 26" barrel.
I do not keep any purchacing information on the website. It keeps the hackers off our back. There is an information e-mail link on the site for questions about the products and purchacing info. One less thing for us to worry about.
We recommend using Winchester Large Pistol primers for the handgun kits.
We also recommend Winchester 209 shotgun primers for the .22 centerfire rifle kits. I don't own any Winchester stock. They just happen to be the most consistent as far as size goes. I ream the handgun primer pockets to fit these primers and if other primers are used there could be fit problems.
As for the price of the handgun kits. They have been the same price for nearly 30 years -- $39.95.
Last and most important is that the Convert-A-Pell system is designed to allow the handgun shooter a method to practice sight, trigger and grip control in their own home, with a full sized firearm, without the need to make a trip to a shooting range. It is an excellent way to train new shooters. They get firearms training without being exposed to the noise and recoil of full bore ammunition. I like to say "Teach them to shoot without teaching them to flinch".
I thank you for the opportunity to respond and I enjoy you site.
R.
At September 28, 2006 7:08 PM, Jason said...
I have been playing with the 22-250 convert-a-pell system I my friend picked it up at the gun show and ever since i have been eddicted . I have a target set up in one end of my house. You wouldn't even know I was shooting if You went into the other room . Its nearly silent . The thing i like about it the most is the fact that the gun on a bench rest when the system is used correctly.
I put 5 pellets through the same hole at 50 feet . Then my wife tried it and put 3 through the same hole at 50 feet . the gun is a remington model 700 22-250 with a 4-9 power scope.
The same bench rest With my beemen . Reacts weird on a bench rest it won't group correctly on a rest . Shooting out of the rest it would do a 1 1/2 group at 50 feet .
The recoil from a piston air gun feels like it kicks back then kicks forward then back again befor the pellet even gets out of the gun. I think this causes it to be a little harder to shoot. It must have something going on because it has wrecked 2 of my scopes that worked fine on my 30-06 and 22-250.
Just to let you know it is fun in a bolt action high end 22 cal rifle like the 22-250 .
I am going to order the system for my AR15 and i will see wha i think .
At September 28, 2006 7:11 PM, Jason said...
BTW this is a diferent Jason .
I had to join this silly thing to post a comment. That sucked .
I dont thing i will ever use this thing again id anyone wants to ask me anything
E mail me at jasonseamans@yahoo.com
At September 29, 2006 6:52 AM, B.B. Pelletier said...
Jason and the happy shooter,
I have heard this comment before. It seems that the shooters who use the Convert-A-Pell in rifles experience better results than those who try it in pistols.
I think the Convert-A-Pell people were unaware that pellets are not the same size as centerfire and rimfires calibers, and they screwed up when they used .22 bore liners as barrels in the pistol kits. For some reason, the system works when the actual rifle barrel is used, but not when their bore liner barrels are employed.
B.B.
At October 25, 2006 2:21 PM, Anonymous said...
Convert-A-Pell handgun kits do not use .22 cal bore liners. They are .177. That is pretty damning evidence. Makes me wonder if you even tested a convert-a-pell kit. Might be you listened to someone else bad mouth the product and drew your own conclusions.
At October 25, 2006 2:46 PM, B.B. Pelletier said...
Sorry but mine was a .22. It fit a 586. And if it wasn't a bore liner, it was a pretty poor barrel!
I did this back in the last century, so that could explain the discrepency.
B.B.
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