Skewed view of the Five-seveN

I don't agree with them, and I don't think that they have a realistic view of threat/risk management, but here's their opinion:

Brady Campaign and the "cop killer gun" - Military Photos

A reasonable discussion on the Brady Campaign's stance...

Brady Campaign and the "cop killer gun" - Military Photos

THR - NYC wants to ban another handgun

THR - NYC wants to ban another handgun

Found it, thanks

Found it, thanks

GunWeek.com

GunWeek.com

NRA-ILA :: Fact Sheets - Brady Campaign Caught Lying About FN Model "Five seveN" Pistol

NRA-ILA :: Fact Sheets: "Brady Campaign Caught Lying About FN Model 'Five seveN' Pistol
Given the large number of lies that anti-gun groups have told over the years, we hesitate to say that this is the most dishonest and deceptive thing we have ever heard from them. But what the Brady Campaign is saying about Fabrique Nationale`s Model 'Five seveN' pistol is among the most dishonest and deceptive to date.
The 'Five seveN' is a conventional semi-automatic pistol designed to fire various types of ammunition in Fabrique Nationale`s (FN) new caliber, 5.7x28mm. As required under federal law,1 only non-armor-penetrating types of 5.7mm ammunition are imported for sale to the public, however. One such type (designated SS196) is loaded with the Hornady V-MAX ('Varmint'-Max) varmint bullet. Some ranchers, who would otherwise carry a rifle for varmint control, have taken to the 'Five seveN,' which is easier to carry when working in the field. A hollowpoint bullet round (SS192) was imported initially, but FN has discontinued it in favor of the V-MAX round.
There is nothing special about the 'Five seveN.' It is a semi-automatic pistol, just like millions of other semi-automatic pistols. BATFE has determined that it is 'particularly suitable for or readily adaptable to sporting purposes,' and has approved its importation. There is also nothing special about the 5.7mm ammunition being sold to the public. V-MAX bullets, introduced in 1996, are used in nine other popular calibers. BATFE has examined the V-MAX round and determined that it is 'not armor piercing ammunition.' (Emphasis in the original.)2
However, Brady Campaign (formerly Handgun Control) claims that the 'Five seveN' should be banned, further claiming that FN`s website says that 'Kevlar helmets and vests . . . will be penetrated'"

Controversy exists over potential body-piercing ammunition | mountvernonnews.com

Controversy exists over potential body-piercing ammunition mountvernonnews.com

MOUNT VERNON — A European gun manufacturer may be selling a commercial handgun designed to shoot body-armor piercing bullets, according to allegations put forth by the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence, a prominent gun control advocacy group.
The Brady Campaign refers to the Fabrique Nationale “Five SeveN”, a gun manufactured by FN Hertzler, a Belgian arms dealer that makes military as well as commercial weaponry.
...

San Antonio Lightning Newspaper Freedom Page - 'Death Wish' Likely To Go Unfulfilled

San Antonio Lightning Newspaper Freedom Page - A Newspaper for South Texas and America - 2nd Amendment and Terror Updates - San Antonio Newspapers Effective Defense Consulting Company Your Source for Hunting News Fredd Bergman hunting nra shooting shoot g

In a stunning reversal, an officer of a leading anti-gun group has retreated from last week's unprecedented offer to shoot a top ranking NRA official, following a challenge from the San Antonio Lightning Newspaper.The President of the Brady Campaign To Prevent Gun Violence "will not be shooting anyone,” according to a spokesperson for that organization.Brady President Mike Barnes told a press conference that hewanted to shoot a soft-body-armored Wayne LaPierre,Executive Director of the National Rifle Association—butMonday a spokesperson for the Campaign retracted Barnes’comment in an exclusive interview with the Lightning.
...

NRA-ILA :: Current Legislation - State - Brady Video Shoots Blanks

NRA-ILA :: Current Legislation - State: "Brady Video Shoots Blanks


Friday, January 28, 2005
In an obvious setup for an ammunition-banning 'killer amendment' to defeat pro-gun legislation, the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence and New York Senator Chuck Schumer (D) have once again proven that they`ve never seen a gun they won`t try to ban. The target of this week`s sparsely attended Washington news conference was FN Herstal`s 'Five-SeveN,' an expensive and still rare polymer-framed handgun. At the same time they attack .50 caliber rifles for their large bullets and long-range capability, the anti-gun groups falsely claim the Five-SeveN--specially designed for short-range use with small, lightweight bullets--poses a threat to police.
The truth is, this pistol and its ammunition were approved for importation by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (BATFE), which stated that the ammunition is 'not armor piercing' under Federal law. BATFE also noted that in tests by FN--one of Europe`s most respected firearm manufacturers--bullets from the Five-SeveN wouldn`t penetrate two kinds of soft body armor (you can see BATFE`s statement at: www.atf.gov/firearms/firearmstech/fabriquen.htm).
Law enforcement agencies and manufacturers follow 57 pages of detailed instructions when testing armor. Brady 'ballisticians' simply shot a vest draped over a bale of hay and handed out a video.
The Brady Campaign`s latest media hysteria is clearly aimed at defeating pro-Second Amendment bills such as the 'Protection of Lawful Commerce in Arms Act.' Last year, Senator Ted Kennedy (D-Mass.) was soundly beaten at that game, when the Senate rebuffed his ploy to saddle the lawsuit bill with an amendment that would have banned most hunting rifle ammunition. The Senate rejected"

Brady Campaign - CONGRESS MUST ACT ON COP KILLER GUN

Brady Campaign - CONGRESS MUST ACT ON COP KILLER GUN: "CONGRESS MUST ACT
ON COP KILLER GUN
For Immediate Release:
03-03-2005Contact Communications:
(202) 898-0792
Washington D.C. - Today, legislation was introduced in the House and Senate to eliminate a clear and present threat to police officers across America - a handgun that shoots body armor piercing bullets.

'We are very grateful to Senators Lautenberg, Corzine and Schumer and Congressman Eliot Engel for introducing legislation in the Senate and the House of Representatives to outlaw this weapon,' said Michael Barnes, President of the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence united with the Million Mom March. 'This weapon is a tragedy waiting to happen.'

'Instead of focusing on the threat to law enforcement caused by public sales of this cop killer gun, many in Congress are instead trying to pass legislation that would immunize the gun's manufacturer from lawsuits,' Barnes said. 'That's insane.'

The gun industry immunity legislation (H.R. 800/S. 397) introduced two weeks ago would shield FN Herstal, a Belgian company, from potential lawsuits based on the sale of its cop killer gun. FN Herstal officials have reportedly told the federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) that commercially available ammunition for the weapon would not penetrate the vests worn by thousands of police officers. Testing has proven the company's claim to be false.

The easily concealable, lightweight handgun retails for about $1,000. One was purchased, along with ammunition, from a Virginia gun dealer in January by staff from the Brady Center to Prevent Gun Violence. In a test conducted by Brady staff, the ammunition purchased with the weapon penetrated a vest. The gun and ammunition were turned over to the Wa"

The Michael Bane Blog: The Two Front War (Thoughts the targeting of 5.7x28mm by the Bradys)

The Michael Bane Blog: The Two Front War

The Forum - SpeakOut.com - Post AWB

The Forum - SpeakOut.com

...
Fabrique National is an old Belgium firearms company that used to make most of Brownings designs. FN is selling the new 5-7 pistol even though this pistol has been targeted by The Brady Campaign for banning. I have already bought a 5-7 pistol and it is capable of effective and accurate fire at further ranges than is normal for a pistol due to the new high velocity 5-7 cartridge. FN will also be introducung a legal semiautomatic version of their famous P-90 submachine gun,(also in 5-7)and their P-2000 rifle. These are atate of the art firearms.
...

FN's New Pistol Sure Has the Bradys Wound Up (blog)

[Ed - See link above for the original article by/at FreedomSight. ]

Say Uncle got the jump on me WRT another press release from the Brady Gun-Ban Bunch in which they caterwaul yet again about the eeeeevvvviiiiillll RN Five-seveN pistol from Fabrique Nationale. Not much to add to what I wrote earlier, but one thing they said is worth noting.

The gun, the Five-SeveN handgun manufactured by FN Herstal of Belgium, is lightweight and easily concealable. It is marketed by the company on its Web site as intended "to defeat the enemy in all close combat situations in urban areas, jungle conditions, night missions and any self defense action. Enemy personnel, even wearing body armor can be effectively engaged up to 200 meters. Kevlar(r) helmets and vests as well as the CRISAT protection will be penetrated."
Yeah, so? Do they have any idea of the vast number of firearms out there which will go through a "bulletproof" vest? The term "bulletproof" is really a misnomer, as it depends on a lot of factors, including bullet construction and velocity. All anybody who wants to defeat typical body armor has to do is get a good centerfire hunting rifle.

I'm not saying that it's a good thing that it's relatively easy to defeat body armor, but rather that it's a completely invalid criterion to use as an argument for banning a particular firearm. It's a non-issue, because there's nothing particularly noteworthy about it, from a technical perspective.

Uncle also points to the ATF Page on the 5.7x28mm cartridge and the Five-seveN pistol. Note there are several types of cartridge available, only two of which are armor-piercing, and, I deduce from the ATF page, only one of which is available for sale in the U.S. to us ordinary civilians. That cartridge is the SS196.
FTB has also examined a 5.7 X 28 mm projectile that FN Herstal has designated the "SS196." The SS196 is loaded with a Hornady 40 grain, jacketed lead bullet. FTB classified SS196 ammunition as not armor piercing ammunition under Federal firearms statutes.

According to FNH USA, FN Herstal tested the SS192 ammunition. SS192 ammunition did not penetrate the Level IIIA vests that were tested. FNH USA states that SS196, Hornady V-Max 40 gr. bullets fired from a 4-3/4 inch barrel did not penetrate the Level II vests that were used in testing. [emphasis mine]
The statements from FN on the capabilities of the 5.7x28mm cartridge are specifically about the SS190 variant of the cartridge, which is, you guessed it, not available to the general public.

But of course, to the Brady Bunch and their ilk, the introduction of any new firearm or cartridge design must seem like an apocalyptic moment, fraught with fear. Why does anybody listen to them?

The sky is still falling (blog)

By SayUncle
In an update to the FN Pistol non-controversy, the Brady Campaign has issued a press release urging congress to ban the gun. Nevermind that the gun isn’t available to the public, the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms notes that the round is not armor piercing.

The anti-gunners always need a bogeyman, even if they must invent it.

Update: Apparently, someone from the Brady Campaign reports that they purchased one which I find odd. The FN page (which is now gone but here’s a google cache) says the pistol is for military and law enforcement only.

[feedback elided]

FN 5.7 Pistol (another blog)

FN 5.7 Pistol
According to the ATF, responding to a press release from the Brady Campaign to End Handgun Violence, the “SS196” pistol cartridge for the FN 5.7 pistol is not armor piercing.

First, a gun picture:



Ah, yes, welcome to the plastic fantastic twenty-first century.

Second, the Brady claims:

The gun, the Five-SeveN handgun manufactured by FN Herstal of Belgium, is lightweight and easily concealable. IBPO Legislative Director Steve Lenkhart referred to the Five-Seven as “an assault rifle that fits in your pocket.”
If it was an assault rifle, then it would be fully automatic. The version sold to private citizens is not, of course, as it would be regulated under the National Firearms Act of 1934 and thus unavailable to private citizens, like any fully automatic firearm made after 1968.

It is marketed by the company on its website as intended “to defeat the enemy in all close combat situations in urban areas, jungle conditions, night missions and any self defense action. Enemy personnel, even wearing body armor can be effectively engaged up to 200 meters. Kevlar® helmets and vests as well as the CRISAT protection will be penetrated.”
Well, no, the private citizen version of this pistol is not marketed in this fashion. The law enforcement and military version of this pistol is marketed this way. The Brady Campaign is not sensitive to market segments, however, activism is a global issue.

What does the ATF say?

FTB has also examined a 5.7 X 28 mm projectile that FN Herstal has designated the “SS196.” The SS196 is loaded with a Hornady 40 grain, jacketed lead bullet. FTB classified SS196 ammunition as not armor piercing ammunition under Federal firearms statutes.
According to FNH USA, FN Herstal tested the SS192 ammunition. SS192 ammunition did not penetrate the Level IIIA vests that were tested. FNH USA states that SS196, Hornady V-Max 40 gr. bullets fired from a 4-3/4 inch barrel did not penetrate the Level II vests that were used in testing.
FNH USA has informed FTB that SS192 is no longer imported for commercial sale to the United States and that commercial sales of 5.7 X 28mm ammunition are restricted to the SS196 (not armor piercing).
In my opinion, if you want a hot .22 pistol, there are certainly better choices than this expensive number with its expensive ammunition. Criminals and terrorists don't have a lot of money to spend on this crud when there are easier targets.

But to the Brady Campaign there is no easier target than guns it thinks no one should ever need. If you want to boil a frog, you turn the heat up slowly. They attack the .50 caliber guns and the hot .22s and continue working their way towards the middle, at which point no guns or ammunition would be legal.

If I was going to spend another $900 on a pistol, I'd get another 1911, probably a longslide in 10mm. If I had more than that to spend, I'd be getting a .50 GI. I'm not going to waste my time with a hot .22. There are far better target pistols and there are far better defensive pistols. This gun was targeted at people who like to have guns that look like what the professionals use.

Josh Poulson

Police Groups to Warn Officers Nationwide About New Cop Killer Gun, Urge Appropriate Congressional Action

1/26/2005 2:58:00 PM


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

To: Assignment Desk, Daybook Editor

Contact: Anne Rosello of The Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence United with the Million Mom March, 202-898-0792

News Advisory:

The National Organization of Black Law Enforcement Executives, International Association of Chiefs of Police, International Brotherhood of Police Officers and other national law enforcement groups will sound an alarm to law enforcement professionals around the country about a new handgun available to the general public that is capable of firing bullets through soft police body armor.

The press conference will take place at 10 a.m. Thursday, Jan. 27 at the First District headquarters of the District of Columbia Police Department located at 415 Fourth Street SW in Washington, D.C. Speakers will include Bernard Thompson, legislative Chair of NOBLE; Metropolitan Police Assistant Chief Brian Jordan, Gaithersburg, Md. Police Chief MaryAnn Viverette who serves as Vice President of the IACP and Steve Lenkart, Legislative Director of the IBPO.

The gun, the Five-SeveN handgun manufactured by FN Herstal of Belgium, is lightweight and easily concealable. It is marketed by the company on its Web site as intended "to defeat the enemy in all close combat situations in urban areas, jungle conditions, night missions and any self defense action. Enemy personnel, even wearing body armor can be effectively engaged up to 200 meters. Kevlar(r) helmets and vests as well as the CRISAT protection will be penetrated." -- http://www.fnherstal.com/html/Index.htm.

Staff of the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence recently purchased the weapon at a Virginia gun dealer and test-fired it. The bullets successfully penetrated a police Kevlar vest. A video of the test will be shown and available to news media.

http://www.usnewswire.com/

-0-

/© 2005 U.S. Newswire 202-347-2770/

The FN FiveSeven being called a "Cop Killer" gun by the Brady gun nuts...

Here's an interesting FACT FILLED letter written by a police officer and sent to the Brady people:

Mr. Shanks,

I'm writing in reference to the Law Enforcement Officers Safety Alert titled, "Cop Killer Gun Available to the Public." I appreciate your concerns for my safety, for I am a police officer with the City of Phoenix, Arizona. However I feel I need to point out some inaccuracies in your news bulletin.

You state that, "In 2003, there were 1,866 officers assaulted in the United States with firearms." That is true, however it's very disingenuous to not continue on to say that this represents only 3% of all assaults on officers (2003 UCR). You will see this is a very small number when compared to the 46,842 assaults involving personal weapons (feet, fists, etc.), 8,059 involving other dangerous weapons (bats, clubs, etc...), and rounding out the bottom of the spectrum 1,074 assaults involving Knives or other cutting instruments.

Maybe you should have stated instead that only 45 Officers were killed in 2003 with a firearms. 34 of those were killed with handguns, and of those 10 were killed with their own weapon. Of those 34 killed none by vest penetration. The 4 officers that were killed by vest penetration were killed by .223 caliber (2), .300, and 7mm caliber rifles. The FN Five-seveN has killed no one.

You also state that the manufacturer advertises that the firearm, "will perforate 48 layers of Kevlar up to 200 meters." That may be true, however this is as advertised to the military and law enforcement while using SS190 armor piercing ammunition. Maybe you should focus on trying to ban the ammunition instead of the gun? Never mind, that ammunition is only available to military and Law enforcement. You see the BATFE has rule for selling ammunition, especially AP ammunition (see Below):

The classification of all ammunition is governed strictly by the definitions presented in the GCA. Specifically, as defined in 18 U.S.C. Section 921(a)(17)(B), the term "armor piercing ammunition" means-
1. a projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun and which is constructed entirely (excluding the presence of traces of other substances) from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper, or depleted uranium; or
2. a full jacketed projectile larger than .22 caliber designed and intended for use in a handgun and whose jacket has a weight of more than 25 percent of the total weight of the projectile.


This type of ammunition is not commercially available. However if you were to purchase this handgun you would be able to buy SS196. This is the only type of ammunition available for commercial sales for this weapon. It uses a Hornady 40gr V-max bullet and leaves the barrel at 2100fps. Interestingly enough this bullet was fired from a FN Five-seveN with a 4 3/4 inch barrel and did not penetrate a Level II vest (by the way most officers like myself wear a level IIIa vest).

You state that this weapon "comes with THREE 20 ROUND MAGAZINES--That is 60 rounds of police body armor piercing ammunition!" Well, no. That means it comes with 3 x 20 round magazines, as for the "police body armor Piercing ammunition(!), well I covered that in the above paragraph.

Also stated is "Because the range and accuracy of this weapon a gunman could easily hold an entire shift of law enforcement officers at bay for hours, making it almost impossible to engage with typical law enforcement service weapons." The accuracy of a weapon is dependant on the trigger puller behind it, not the weapon itself. Most weapons are extremely accurate with the right shooter. I can also tell you I've seen someone with no weapon keep cops at bay for hours just behind a closed door. You don't advocate getting rid of doors do you? An officer with an issue Colt Carbine can easily place rounds on target against someone with one of the FNs. Rifle are inherently more accurate and a more forgiving weapon to shoot.

Lastly sir, you state, "The Brady Center to Prevent Gun Violence believes there is no place in our society for this weapon." Sir, its time to be honest. The Brady Center believes there in no place in our society for ANY type of firearm. All, I repeat ALL, studies have shown that gun control does not deter crime/gun crimes. Since the U.K. and Australia have banned the ownership of most guns the crime rate has soared. Why is it that gun friendly states have the least amount of Crime? I'll make a deal with you. I won't try and take away your constitutional 1st amendment rights to print and distribute your safety alerts full of half-truths and omissions, and you don't mess with my 2nd amendment right to own any type of gun I want. Is it a deal?

sincerely,
Adam Frost
Phoenix Police Dept.