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Thursday, September 30, 2004
P90 (Fan Page)
FN P90
Since its introduction on the world arms market in the late 20th century, FN Herstal's P90 PDW (Personal Defense Weapon) has had a number of enhancements made to it, none major but all significant. The look of the gun, which sets it apart from all other small arms, remains unchanged and complements the concept of the weapon. This compact but full-powered weapon was designed primarily for military personnel including communications specialists, drivers, medical workers and others who function in tight quarters that do not lend themselves to even abbreviated rifles. It's interesting to note that FN coined the term PDW, and that it has been picked up by several other world-class arms manufacturers who have adapted their existing weapons systems to present a gun in this category.
The horizons of the P90 have been expanded considerably now, however, in that it is considered appropriate for anti-terrorist actions, rescue missions, VIP protection and other military special operations. In some of these instances it might be considered as a primary weapon when actions are anticipated to be within 200 meters. By design, the P90 is one of the most ergonomic guns in the world. The extensive use of composite materials contributes to the light weight of the weapon system, and the balance of the gun, whether used by a left- or right-handed shooter, is not compromised. There is no buttstock as such to be extended or attached before deployment, and the P90 can be quickly shouldered for action. The rounded corners and edges of the P90 cannot cut or abrade the shooter, or foul his other equipment or snag on vegetation, and there's ample easy access to the trigger even wearing arctic or NBC gloves.
The mechanism of the P90 is quite simple, and without tools the gun breaks down for field stripping into three major assemblies, in addition to the magazine, in about five seconds. The P90 features a blow-back mechanism and fires from a closed breech (which is protected from extreme environments), thereby combining the reliability of the most simple operating system with the accuracy potentials of a full-size weapon. Other details indicate that the PDW needs little or no lubrication, the full-automatic cyclic rate is in the 900rpm range and the gun is capable of firing more than 20,000 rounds before needing any maintainance.
The P90 feeds from a proprietary magazine system designed by FN. The box magazine itself is a see-through, highly resistant polycarbonate that contains 50 rounds of FN's 5.7x28mm ammunition, the only chambering available for the P90. The ammunition is loaded bullets-left into the magazine which is then mounted on the gun on top of the barrel so there is no protrusion as is found on all other weapons systems that do not completely house their magazines. The gun and magazine work together in having the cartridges rotate inside the magazine before being fed into the weapon. Although this sounds less than reassuring, the system has tested reliable over the years.
The enhancements to the original P-90 system are, for the most part, sighting accommodations. The standard arrangement for the P90 is an integrated optical sight with no magnification. The gun can be fitted with a standard NATO sight base that accommodates a wide variety of day and night sights to answer any mission requirements. A laser target designator can be fully integrated into the receiver without affecting the shape, balance or ergonomics of the P90. There are two types of laser systems available for the P90. A red dot visible to the eye under normal and low-light conditions is recommended for conventional situations. When maximum discretion is desired, an IR system can be used, but this requires the user to have night vision equipment to see the dot. In concert with the maximum discretion concept, the P90 can be fitted with a variety of muzzle suppressors.
Military organizations have struggled for generations with two frequently overlapping problems: (1) how to arm troops whose primary mission is something other than the use of small arms; and (2) how to arm troops who need compact firepower for conducting special operations. A remarkable array of pistols, submachine guns and carbines have been fielded over the years in an attempt to give people such as vehicle drivers, operators of crew-served weapons, support personnel and special operators a weapon with the optimum mix of compact size, hit probability, sustained firepower and terminal ballistics. Recent decades have also seen a similar quest in law enforcement to provide superior sidearms and auxiliary weapons for officers facing a changing tactical environment. The result is that sidearms, submachine guns and carbines developed for the aforementioned special military needs have become widely used tools within law enforcement. One of the most provocative attempts to solve the common requirements of both the military and law enforcement is the select-fire P90 Personal Defense Weapon designed and manufactured by Fabrique National Herstal SA of Belgium.
One aspect of the changing tactical environment faced by both the military and law enforcement is that an armed opponent may be wearing body armor. In the late 1970s, the former Soviet Union was the first major power to develop a new class of pistol cartridge, the 5.45x18mm PMT, which was designed to penetrate standard body armor with ease, with the ancillary benefits of improving hit probability and minimizing recoil. Developed by Aleksandr Bochkin in 1979, the bottle-necked cartridge appears to be a scaled-down version of the 5.45x39mm rifle round adopted by the Soviets in 1974 for the AK-74 assault rifle. The Soviets developed a new pistol for the new 5.45x18mm round called the Pistolet Samozaryadniy Malogabaritniy, the "Miniature Semiautomatic Pistol" or PSM for short. Designed by Tikkon Lashnev, Anatoliy Simarin and Lev Kulikov, the PSM superficially resembles a Walther PP pistol and will penetrate up to 55 layers of kevlar at realistic engagement distances. With a steel core projectile weighing 2.4-2.6 grams (37-41 grains, which is less than half the weight of the 9x18mm Makarov round it replaced), a muzzle velocity of 315 mps (1,033 fps) and a powder charge of 0.15 gram (2.3 grains), the 5.45x18mm PMT cartridge also provides a relatively flat trajectory and modest recoil. These qualities improve hit probability when troops of average skill use the PSM as a defensive weapon.
Some NATO planners subsequently became concerned about the issue of body armor on the baftlefield and decided that the 9x19mm cartridge was now obsolete, since it wouldn't penetrate the body armor they imagined would become standard equipment for infantry troops. These NATO planners informally approached the small-arms industry about the possibility of developing a new class of cartridge to replace the 9x19mm NATO round for personal defense. Only two companies were willing to invest the substantial R&D funds on such a speculative venture; Fabrique Nationale of Belgium and Giat of France began the development of new bottle-neck cartridges in the mid-1980s.
The two companies took somewhat different approaches. Giat concentrated on developing a new cartridge resembling a .30 Luger round necked down to .22 caliber, which they called the 5.7x22mm. Fabrique Nationale not only developed a larger round, the 5.7x28mm, but FN also developed a series of innovative weapons around the new cartridge: a select-fire bullpup weapon with a 50-round horizontal magazine on top of the receiver and an extremely accurate, lightweight (19 ounce), high capacity (20 round) pistol called the Five seven. FN publicly announced they were developing a personal defense weapon in 1989 which was scheduled for production 1990. Ironically, however, the P90 was not named for the year of its initial production, but rather for FN's "Project 9.0" which spawned it.
When Giat became the parent company of Fabrique Nationale, Giat abandoned the 5.7x22mm project in favor of FN's more advanced project for several reasons. (1) FN's 5.7x28mm cartridge met all of the NATO requirements. And (2) Giat didn't have a weapon designed for its cartridge but FN had already developed the P90 for its new cartridge. The first public demonstration of the pistol subsequently took place in 1995, and an improved variant went into production in May 1998. The external ballistics provided by FN's 5.7x28mm cartridge are vastly superior to the performance provided by the Russian 5.45x18mm PMT cartridge. As of 1999, the P90 had been adopted by more than a dozen countries in limited numbers.
With an overall length of just 50.0 cm, the P90 is considerably shorter than the 9x19mm H&K MP5 submachine gun or the 5.56x45mm Colt M4 carbine. The P90 weighs 2.5 kg with an empty magazine and 3.0 kg with a fully loaded 50-round magazine, which is similar to the weight of an MP5 with a 30-round magazine. The P90 is just 21.0 cm high with a magazine fitted to the weapon.
The P90 features an optical reflex sight (with no magnification), and a three-position rotary selector beneath the trigger with positions marked "S" for Safe, "1" for semiautomatic and "A" for Automatic. When set on A, the selector provides a double-action trigger similar to the Steyr AUG. Pull the trigger back a little for semiautomatic fire and pull the trigger fully to the rear for full-auto fire. A cyclic rate of 900 rpm enables the operator to obtain two- or three-shot bursts. Shot dispersion remains remarkably tight, thanks in part to the fact that the 5.7x28mm cartridge has about one-third of the recoil impulse produced by the 5.56x45mm round used in the M16 family of weapons. Apparent recoil and shot dispersion are also mitigated by twin operating (recoil) springs and guide rods which, like the trigger, are reminiscent of the Steyr AUG. Sal Fanelli of FN Manufacturing Inc. puts on a particularly impressive demonstration, where he shot a 50-round burst of tracers into the center of mass in a Milpark target at 50 meters. His tightest 50-round burst to date measured 24 cm.
Three rounds are available for the P90. The standard ball round, called the SS190, features an overall length of 40.5 mm, a projectile weight of 2.02 grams and a muzzle velocity of 715 mps. The SS190 projectile features steel core in front of an aluminum core toward the base. The bullet penetrates about 26 cm of 10 percent ballistic gelatin, according to testing conducted at the Royal Canadian Mounted Police Academy in September 1997. The SS190 round will also penetrate 48 layers of Kevlar, the typical "Flak jacket" (including CRISAT protection, which is a combination of titanium and Kevlar) worn by infantry to protect them from shrapnel produced by exploding devices, or a standard PASGT (U.S. Kevlar) helmet at 150 meters, which is the effective range of the P90 Personal Defense Weapon. The weapon will still defeat Level 3 body armor at 200 meters. The "maximum effective range" using the NATO definition (the maximum range where a weapon's projectile will still deliver 85 joules on target) is 400 meters. Thus, according to NATO standards, the P90 is theoretically able to deliver a lethal wound on a protected target at 200m and an unprotected target at 400m if the round hits a vital area. It is found through practise that one should not engage targets beyond 150m with the standard SS190 round.
The subsonic SB193 round used for this testing features a lead core boattail bullet with a projectile weight of 3.58 grams and a muzzle velocity of 304 mps as measured by a P.A.C.T MKIV timer/chronograph with MKV skyscreens set 61cm apart and the start screen 2.44m from the muzzle. A new subsonic round featuring a 5.0 gram projectile moving at the same velocity as the older subsonic round but no further details were available at press time. A tracer round designated the L191 is also available. The SS190 round weighs about half as much as a 9x19mm or 5.56x45mm round, so carrying a given amount of extra ammunition would be less burdensome for personnel already concerned with impedimenta. Conversely, special operators could carry twice as much ammunition for the same weight.
Despite the fact that the P90 Personal Defense Weapon fires a bottle-necked cartridge, which looks something like a downsized .22 Hornet, the weapon fires using an unusual method of operation that might be described as a cross between the short recoil and simple Bergmann-Bayard straight blowback principles. Upon firing, the 26.3 cm barrel and bolt recoil rearward for about 0.76 mm, enabling the pressure in the barrel to drop to a safe level. When the barrel stops its rearward travel, the bolt continues rearward in straight blowback fashion. FN Herstal SA seems to have developed a unique flavor of delayed blowback operation. Unlike the typical submachine gun, however, the P90 fires from the closed bolt to maximize semiautomatic accuracy. Recoil is brisk but very smooth, and cycling is reliable thanks in part to an anti-bounce weight in the bolt, which is operated by one of the main operating (recoil) springs. Polymers are extensively used throughout the P90 to reduce both the weight and the cost of the weapon. The human engineering of the weapon is outstanding and ambidextrous.
A variety of features enhance the ambidextrous qualities of the P90. Both sides of the weapon feature a charging handle, auxiliary fixed sights and a magazine release. The manual selector below the trigger can be operated from either side of the trigger. The stock and grips are symmetrical. And the weapon ejects downward, so lefties don't need to worry about hot brass in the face.
One of the most interesting features of the P90, which helps make the weapon so compact, is the polycarbonate 50-round magazine that locks in place between the charging handles and the optical sight. The magazine features a follower with rollers and a constant-force spring that make loading a 50-round magazine easy instead of the usual thumb-busting exercise in frustration. But the most noteworthy aspect of the magazine design is that loading one cartridge forces the rounds under it to eventually rotate 90 degrees to the right so they can slide into a double stack of cartridges in the magazine body.
This rotation occurs in stepwise fashion. The first round in the magazine sits in the magazine's feed lips at the 0 degree position (where it will be aligned with the chamber when the magazine is fitted to the weapon). Inserting a second cartridge forces the cartridge under it to rotate to 82 or 83 degrees from the bore angle. Adding another cartridge to the magazine pushes the original round to the 87 degree position. Adding a fourth cartridge forces the original Cartridge to the 90 degree position in the main body of the magazine. Thus, the cartridges go through a four-step process to become fully aligned in a double stack within the magazine.
The optical sight is made from a solid piece of glass so there's no risk of nitrogen leaking and subsequent fogging in the field. It has two complementary reticle patterns for differing lighting conditions.
A day reticle, which is projected into the sight from the front, features a circular reticle which I particularly like since it provides very rapid target acquisition throughout the effective range of the weapon. The reticle has several markings which complement each other. A very large circular reticle provides fast target acquisition at panic-close range, while a much smaller circle is optimized for target acquisition at 100 meters but works very well at closer ranges. A tiny dot inside the smallest circle can be used for maximum finesse; this dot lies 94 mm above the center of the bore.
A low-light reticle, which is illuminated by a replaceable tritium cell, is projected into the optical sight from the rear. It is normally invisible in bright daylight conditions unless the sight is shaded by the brim of a large hat. A horizontal reticle runs across the center of the field from one side to the other, and a vertical reticle runs from the bottom of the field to the small circle. These lines form three legs of a traditional crosshair reticle, which can be quite useful inside dark buildings or during low-light operations outside. In those relatively rare lighting conditions where both the day and night reticles are visible, the sight picture is still uncluttered enough to provide rapid target acquisition. This is a very well-engineered optical sight.
The manual selector is positive and quiet, but not as instinctive or fast as the selector on an MP5 submachine gun or M16-type weapon. Other safety features include a safety sear that holds the hammer until the bolt (which FN calls the breech block assembly) has fully closed behind the chamber, and an inertial safety that locks the sear if the weapon is dropped (solving a problem that caused substantial casualties during World War II). Unlike most submachine guns, the P90 is a very safe weapon to handle in the rough and tumble real world. The P90 also has a very high resistance to cook-offs following prolonged full-auto fire. Most end-users fielding this weapon carry a maximum ammunition load of 400 rounds, and the P90 demonstrated no cook-off problems when 400 rounds were dumped as rapidly as possible downrange.
A final curiosity is that the design and materials of the P90 also make the weapon very easy to clean, a process that only takes about four minutes. This appeals to military SpecOps personnel, who tend to have a special affection for weapons that require a minimum of maintenance and, therefore, don't cut into their "Miller Time."
FABRIQUE NATIONALE P90PDW Specs
Trigger: Double Action
Rate of fire: Semi-automatic, Three round burst, Fully automatic
Clip: 50 round 5.7mm x 22mm round
Length: 50 centimeters
Width: 5.5 centimeters
Height: 21.0 centimeters
Barrel length: 26.3 centimeters
Weight fully loaded: 3.0 kilograms
Muzzle velocity: 800 meters per second
Maximum range: 250+ meters
Maximum effective range: 175+ meters
Cool collection of links (A different Steve)
New and/or updated data at the following:
http://stevespages.com/page7.htm Firearms
http://stevespages.com/page7a.htm IPB Of Firearms
http://stevespages.com/page7b.htm Firearms Owner Manuals
http://stevespages.com/page8.htm Reloading
http://stevespages.com/page8b.htm Software Download
http://stevespages.com/page8c.htm Reloading Data
http://stevespages.com/page8d.htm Cartridge Drawings And Dimensions
http://stevespages.com/table1.html Favorite Loads
http://stevespages.com/table3.html All Kinds Of Good Stuff
http://stevespages.com/page7.htm Firearms
http://stevespages.com/page7a.htm IPB Of Firearms
http://stevespages.com/page7b.htm Firearms Owner Manuals
http://stevespages.com/page8.htm Reloading
http://stevespages.com/page8b.htm Software Download
http://stevespages.com/page8c.htm Reloading Data
http://stevespages.com/page8d.htm Cartridge Drawings And Dimensions
http://stevespages.com/table1.html Favorite Loads
http://stevespages.com/table3.html All Kinds Of Good Stuff
Wednesday, September 29, 2004
AR 15 in a 5.7x28 FN
Posted by: 17man , 09/29/2004, 13:10:26
I built a AR and modifide it to shoot the 5.7x28 . I necked the case down to 17 caliber and built a clip from a M1 carbine and put inside of a regular 223 20 round clip . I bought a 17HMR barrel from brownells { Clark 10/22 17HMR , 9 twist } I bushed the bolt and modifide 223 extractor . It is a blast to go to a PD town and cut loose on them . I has very mild muzzle blast and no recoil . I can shoot 16grain to 30 grain bullets with the 9 twist barrel . I had to make my own dies though and that was kind of a pain . I buit this one with a heavy barrel and it gets kinda heavy toating around , so the next one is going to be as light as I can build with maybe a tension barrel with aluminum sleeve and maybe a carbon fiber lower if I can find one . Later ! Mark.
I built a AR and modifide it to shoot the 5.7x28 . I necked the case down to 17 caliber and built a clip from a M1 carbine and put inside of a regular 223 20 round clip . I bought a 17HMR barrel from brownells { Clark 10/22 17HMR , 9 twist } I bushed the bolt and modifide 223 extractor . It is a blast to go to a PD town and cut loose on them . I has very mild muzzle blast and no recoil . I can shoot 16grain to 30 grain bullets with the 9 twist barrel . I had to make my own dies though and that was kind of a pain . I buit this one with a heavy barrel and it gets kinda heavy toating around , so the next one is going to be as light as I can build with maybe a tension barrel with aluminum sleeve and maybe a carbon fiber lower if I can find one . Later ! Mark.
RodgerVich's 4.4x28
Posted by: rodgervich ®
05/05/2004, 19:10:40
Here's my version, it's the one on the left.
Mine is on a Contender but others have put them in .30 Carbine magazines and I have found that they fit in .22Hornet magazines. The rimless case head doesn't match anything commercially available that I know of so a custom bushed bolt would be required.
I have had 15gr Bergers to 3,500ft/s and 20VMAX to almost 3,200 ft/s but better accuracy for 20's is around 3,000.
The rim is very thin and deforms easily during forming and reloading, not an easy case to play with. None of the standard shellholders fit very well, .25ACP is closest but needs to be opened up a little. Supposedly RCBS makes them but they sent me a "5mm centerfire" shellholder that is marginal. I had to make an insert for the primer hole in the shellholder to support the case head during forming or the rim just rips right off.
There is no try; only do, or do not.
05/05/2004, 19:10:40
Here's my version, it's the one on the left.
Mine is on a Contender but others have put them in .30 Carbine magazines and I have found that they fit in .22Hornet magazines. The rimless case head doesn't match anything commercially available that I know of so a custom bushed bolt would be required.
I have had 15gr Bergers to 3,500ft/s and 20VMAX to almost 3,200 ft/s but better accuracy for 20's is around 3,000.
The rim is very thin and deforms easily during forming and reloading, not an easy case to play with. None of the standard shellholders fit very well, .25ACP is closest but needs to be opened up a little. Supposedly RCBS makes them but they sent me a "5mm centerfire" shellholder that is marginal. I had to make an insert for the primer hole in the shellholder to support the case head during forming or the rim just rips right off.
There is no try; only do, or do not.
FN FiveseveN Forums - An Unconventional Sub-machine Gun
FN FiveseveN Forums - An Unconventional Sub-machine Gun: An Unconventional Sub-machine Gun
------------------
The radical 5.7mm FN P-90 sub-machine gun differs greatly from conventional sub-machine guns. The differences incorporated in the P-90 include: different magazine type, construction, layout, and feeding method; grip method; shell ejection; sighting method; and ammunition characteristics. At first glance, the most noticeable difference of the P-90 is the 50-round weather-resistant magazine, which lies horizontally on top of the gun. The bullets, which lie sideways in the magazine, are rotated ninety degrees at the magazine mouth before being fed into the barrel to be fired. Conventional sub-machine gun magazines are positioned vertically and protrude downwards several inches to nearly a foot, depending on the capacity of the particular weapon. This means that with conventional magazine layouts, one must choose either high capacity or maneuverability, whereas with the P-90's magazine layout, there is not a compromise. Conventional sub-machine gun magazines hold 30 rounds and protrude nearly a foot, but the P-90 magazine holds 50 rounds and does not protrude at all, and is surprisingly more reliable than other magazines. The P-90 is held by inserting the hands into thumb-holes at the front of the weapon; this makes it easier to fire with gloves, and because the firer's grip is at the front of the weapon and the magazine runs along nearly the entire weapon, the P-90's balance is optimal. Conventional sub-machine guns are gripped at the back of the weapon, and this makes them nearly impossible to hold with one hand, due to the majority of the weight being on the front end. The P-90's method of ejecting spent shells is also different. Whereas conventional sub-machine guns eject shells sharply outward through a port on the side of the weapon, the P-90 drops spent shells downwards through a port in the center of the weapon on the underside. Another way in which the P-90 contrasts with other guns is the sighting method; conventional sub-machine guns are sighted with iron sights, but the P-90 is sighted with a fog-resistant optical sight that illuminates in areas with poor lighting. The P-90 has very little recoil, enhancing accuracy and making it comfortable to fire fully automatic. Another benefit of the 5.7mm ammunition of the P-90, besides the absence of recoil and the ability to store an extremely large amount of bullets, is its ability to penetrate 48 layers of Kevlar-material body armor from a distance of 200 meters, and the average Kevlar vest contains 20 layers of material. The 9mm FMJ round, used in nearly all other sub-machine guns, will not penetrate even light Kevlar vests at close range. The differences incorporated in the P-90 can only be considered to be improvements, and make the P-90 a very formidable sub-machine gun.
--Written by DML, 29/09/04
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The radical 5.7mm FN P-90 sub-machine gun differs greatly from conventional sub-machine guns. The differences incorporated in the P-90 include: different magazine type, construction, layout, and feeding method; grip method; shell ejection; sighting method; and ammunition characteristics. At first glance, the most noticeable difference of the P-90 is the 50-round weather-resistant magazine, which lies horizontally on top of the gun. The bullets, which lie sideways in the magazine, are rotated ninety degrees at the magazine mouth before being fed into the barrel to be fired. Conventional sub-machine gun magazines are positioned vertically and protrude downwards several inches to nearly a foot, depending on the capacity of the particular weapon. This means that with conventional magazine layouts, one must choose either high capacity or maneuverability, whereas with the P-90's magazine layout, there is not a compromise. Conventional sub-machine gun magazines hold 30 rounds and protrude nearly a foot, but the P-90 magazine holds 50 rounds and does not protrude at all, and is surprisingly more reliable than other magazines. The P-90 is held by inserting the hands into thumb-holes at the front of the weapon; this makes it easier to fire with gloves, and because the firer's grip is at the front of the weapon and the magazine runs along nearly the entire weapon, the P-90's balance is optimal. Conventional sub-machine guns are gripped at the back of the weapon, and this makes them nearly impossible to hold with one hand, due to the majority of the weight being on the front end. The P-90's method of ejecting spent shells is also different. Whereas conventional sub-machine guns eject shells sharply outward through a port on the side of the weapon, the P-90 drops spent shells downwards through a port in the center of the weapon on the underside. Another way in which the P-90 contrasts with other guns is the sighting method; conventional sub-machine guns are sighted with iron sights, but the P-90 is sighted with a fog-resistant optical sight that illuminates in areas with poor lighting. The P-90 has very little recoil, enhancing accuracy and making it comfortable to fire fully automatic. Another benefit of the 5.7mm ammunition of the P-90, besides the absence of recoil and the ability to store an extremely large amount of bullets, is its ability to penetrate 48 layers of Kevlar-material body armor from a distance of 200 meters, and the average Kevlar vest contains 20 layers of material. The 9mm FMJ round, used in nearly all other sub-machine guns, will not penetrate even light Kevlar vests at close range. The differences incorporated in the P-90 can only be considered to be improvements, and make the P-90 a very formidable sub-machine gun.
--Written by DML, 29/09/04
A Bolt Action Rifle in 5.7x28mm
Right now I'm loaded down with paying design jobs, but here is the
design brief:Reciever is bar-stock, with the top milled to a semi-octagonal shape.
Mostly conventional construction, although a take-down and repeater are in the
cards if it works. Bolt will be non-rotating, with lockup at the rear
by four or eight locking lugs attached to and rotating with the bolt
handle. It makes a much shorter action and bolt travel by not having to slide the
round over the locking lugs, and since the round is so small, having a bolt
that is flat on the bottom makes the next round in the magazine feed in a
more nearly straight line. The receiver will be plenty rigid, and fire
control will be similar to an Anschutz 54 action. Will probably use an Anschutz
trigger, at $285!!! If it goes well, I plan to have a sporter with an
18" light barrel, a Parkerized model with plastic stock, and a stainless
model with laminated thumbhole stock and 18-20" medium barrel. I plan to be
unloading ammo by early spring, and already have interest in a .20 and
two .17 wildcats.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Me"
To: "Kelly Ray Caton"
Sent: Wednesday, September 29, 2004 2:36 PM
Subject: Re: 5.7x28 Dillon Group Buy-shell holder,etc
> Hi,
>
> I'm curious as to how your bolt-action rifle project
> is coming along.
>
> Best,
>
> --
> S
>
> At
> http://www.subguns.com/boards/reloading.cgi?read=10310
> you wrote:
>
> I bought a box of 5.7 x 28 ammo a month ago and
> have nothing in which to shoot it. The round would
> have been ideal on a recent prairie dog shoot. I am
> currently working on the design of a bolt-action rifle
> for this cartridge. It is really a modern Hornet, but
> you are telling me that the neck crumples like a
> Hornet? What bullet weight should I use? The ball ammo
> is 31 gr, but 40 is more commonly available. Twist
> rate of 1:12 for the 40 gr, 1:14 for the 31? It would
> be interesting to see it necked down to .20 or .17
> cal.
Positive Opinions
Quote:
| Here is a list of the US police departments using the Five-seveN and/or P-90: Houston, TX PD Jacksonville, FL PD Salt Lake City, PD MO St Hwy Patrol Creve Coeur, MO PD Edmond, OK PD Little Rock, AR PD North Little Rock, AR PD Burmingham , AL PD Benton County, AR Sheriffs Dept Bentonville, AR PD Belleview, NE PD Olathe, KS PD Palm Beach County, FL Sheriffs Dept US Dept of Immigration & Naturalization Richland County, SC PD Souix Falls, SD SWAT Batesburg/Leesville, SC PD Davis County, UT Sheriffs Dept Pasco County, FL Sheriffs Dept Zephyr Hills, FL PD Charlston County, SC Sheriffs Dept Oakdale, MN PD Lexington, SC PD Anderson County, SC Sheriffs Dept Washoe County, NV Sheriffs Dept Whiteoak Borough, PA PD City of Daleville, AL Greenwood County, SC Sheriffs Dept Camden, SC PD Dallas, TX PD Austin, TX PD Slidell, LA PD Davidson, NC PD Duluth, GA PD Examples of single shot kills: - Houston PD Swat - Single shot to the chest. Tumbled into the heart and cut it in half. - Doraville, GA. Swat - Single neck shot; severed spinal cord. - Lima, Peru. Japanese Embassy. - Single shot to the chest, through level III body armor. A quote regarding the US Secret Service (who use the P-90 and Five-seveN): "If you have any question about the effectiveness of this round, I would encourage you to call Sgt. Sandy Wall at Houston PD SWAT and ask him about the shooting they had where the suspects heart was literally cut in two halves. I would also get in touch with the US Secret Service who has done extensive ballistic testing with this system. They are so impressed that they are replacing all 9mm sub machine guns with the P90. Do you think for a second that they would adopt a system that would not even work as well as what they had? In fact when they reliability tested the P90, it had only two malfunctions in 50,000 rounds out of 5 different guns. They stated in their report form the James J. Reilly Secret Service Training Center that the P90 is the most reliable weapon ever tested by that facility. Another interesting point that comes form this testing is that Dr. Fackler told the Secret Service before the tests that this system is ineffective. The Secret Service on the other hand had this to say... "While we respect Dr. Fackler's opinion, we have found this system to be a extremely effective system and we feel confident adopting it, we find that the 5.7x28mm system supports all claims made by FN concerning the effectiveness of this system" Another quote: To make the statement that Dr. Roberts does undermines his credibility and that of the people in the ballistic community. Gelatin is not human tissue. Dr. Fackler has been wrong before and I believe he wrong here as well. The proof is in the adoption of this system by the US Federal Government as well as over 25 counties across the globe. In the assault on the Japanese embassy in Lima, Peru, which is where the P90/5.7 system first went operational, all of the hostage takers were eliminated through their level 3 body armor. This includes the leader who was hit with one round through his body armor and expired. There are dozens of state and local departments here in the US who have adopted the system. I don't know of one department who said that the system was not effective ballistically. All the experience and real life examples speaks louder than any single round fired into a mold or a "professional" writing up ballistics on paper. And another: The SS190 bullet is almost 1 in. long. If it were passing sideways through soft tissue, which is what it does when it tumbles, it would certainly create at least a 1" wound cavity. Now, add to that syntactical energy produced by the round traveling 2300 fps (P90) or 2100 (FsN) and you have soft tissue tearing off the axis' (ends) of the bullet creating a much larger permanent wound cavity. I have done gelatin testing with this system and every police officer that saw it was needless to say very impressed. This system has also had a 100% fatality rate in the U.S. One subject in Sioux Fall S.D. was shot in the hand and the arm through a solid core door. He lost two fingers off his gun hand and the bone in his arm was shattered, leaving him with little use of the arm. Interesting note about the one person who managed to survive an attack from the P90 – The round went through a solid core door and was already starting to tumble. By the time it reached his bone, the round hit it flat and didn’t just break his arm, it powdered the bone within. Also, knocking two fingers off his gun hand. Houston PD shot a subject who was firing at them with an AR-15. The subject was hit in the chest and the bullet tumbled into his heart, cutting it into two pieces. The coroner remarked that he had never seen a wound like that. The bullet also did not exit his body. I doubt that if this round had a wound channel that resembled a .22 Mag, it would do that sort of damage. Also the Secret Service and the Federal Protective Service has adopted the P90 as their new PDW. They did exhaustive tests of both reliability and ballistics. Again, I would like to hear (from anyone) who has a CREDIBLE source of information that is able to discredit this round legitimately. So far, no one has presented me with enough evidence to suggest this round should not be used to save someone’s life. In fact, I am retracting an earlier statement I made before – I would certainly use the Five-seveN system as a concealed weapon and a protective device for my own personal defense. It’s safe, light, easy to shoot, powerful and it has been field-tested to have a proven performance record time and time again. I wish the departments and the US government would be willing to hand over their independent ballistics test results. I want to see the data that changed the Secret Service’s mind in the face of evidence presented by the experts. Note that the Secret Service WILL give their findings over to law enforcement departments who request the information. This information is confidential. But I’m sure it’s what other LE agencies are basing their judgments on. I’m asking my question again – Who has proof this round is a failure? And if no one can answer this question then I’d like to know – Why is there such a determined and organized effort out to discredit a perfectly good round of ammunition? It does everything FN said it would do. It is a disservice to present comdemning opinions without researching the actual field tests and people who use it. It is a disservice to FN and the people who represent that factory. But worse, it is a disservice to the 5.7x28, a round of ammunition that has been designed to save lives while causing minimal collateral damage. Please stop throwing Dr Fackler into the discussion. He has already been publicly discredited by the Secret Service. He has absolutely no legitimacy to this topic. I’ll reiterate the statement from the Secret Service: "While we respect Dr. Fackler's opinion, we have found this system to be a extremely effective system and we feel confident adopting it, we find that the 5.7x28mm system supports all claims made by FN concerning the effectiveness of this system" But I implore you, do not take my word for what I’ve said. Do your own research. Get out of your labs and talk to the people who trust their lives to this system every day. Talk to the agencies who stepped up and did their own independent ballistics research. If I ask you to take my findings as the truth, then my findings would be no more valuable than an individual posting opinions in the Wound Ballistic Review. |
I found the above posts in a 5.7mm-related thread recently; the 5.7mm has up until now been completely doubted but has now proven very effective in combat. Real life performance is the real deal, gel tests are not. Dr Fackler himself said this: "Lab testing is one thing. But real world hits on people tell a different story." Also, as gunrunner mentioned, Dr Roberts only stated his opinion of the 5.7mm, he didn't present any data that would back him up. Also, i've researched 'Doc GKR', and am very unimpressed with how he has treated others whose opinions differ from his.
Negative Opinion - Dr. Roberts
Go check the Terminal Effects forum on Tactical Forums
Doctor Roberts has a lot of real data...not hype
Here is a taste
Other than being able to perforate soft body armor, the 5.7 x 28 mm used in the FN P90, as well as the 4.6 x 30 mm fired from the HK MP7 cause wounds less incapacitating than those made by 9 mm FMJ fired from a pistol.
I have personally fired the 5.7 x 28 mm FN P-90; velocity, penetration, and tissue destruction is like a .17 Hornet--far less than we see with 75 gr TAP or 77 MK out of our M4’s. Winchester RA45T 230 gr JHP’s fired from our duty 1911’s crush more tissue and penetrate further than the 5.7 x 28 mm. Use of the 5.7 x 28 mm is a good way to ensure mission failure.
Several papers have described the incredibly poor terminal performance of projectiles fired by the FN P90.
--Dahlstrom D, Powley K, and Gordon C: “Wound Profile of the FN Cartridge (SS 190) Fired from the FN P90 Submachine Gun". Wound Ballistic Review. 4(3):21-26; Spring 2000.
--Fackler M: "Errors & Omissions", Wound Ballistic Review. 1(1):46; Winter 1991.
--Fackler M: "More on the Bizarre Fabrique National P-90", Wound Ballistic Review. 3(1):44-45; 1997.
--FBI Academy Firearms Training Unit. FBI Handgun Ammunition Tests 1989-1995. Quantico, U.S. Department of Justice--Federal Bureau of Investigation.
--Hayes C: “Personal Defense Weapons—Answer in Search of a Question”, Wound Ballistic Review. 5(1):30-36; Spring 2001.
--Roberts G: “Preliminary Evaluation of the Terminal Performance of the 5.7 x 28 mm 23 Grain FMJ Bullet Fired by the New FN P-90 , Using 10% Ordnance Gelatin as a Tissue Simulant”, AFTE Journal. 30(2):326-329, Spring 1998.
--Roberts G: “Terminal Performance of the 5.7 x 28 mm 31 Grain SS-190 FMJ Bullet Fired by the FN P-90 in 10% Ordnance Gelatin.”, AFTE Journal. In Press.
The early 5.7 x 28 mm 23 gr FMJ bullet fired by the FN P-90 had insufficient penetration for law enforcement and military use. The current 31 gr SS-190 FMJ bullet has nearly adequate penetration, but the wound resulting from this projectile has a relatively small permanent crush cavity, as well as an insignificant temporary stretch cavity. Although the 5.7 x 28 mm penetrates soft body armor, wounding potential is at best like a .22 LR or .22 Magnum. Even 9mm NATO FMJ makes a larger wound--and we are all aware of the awe inspiring incapacitation potential of M882 ball from the M9......
Numerous other projectiles commonly used for law enforcement and military special operations applications, such as a good 9mm, .40 S&W, or .45 ACP JHP, the better 5.56 x 45 mm BTHP/JSP loads, as well as 12 gauge shotgun slugs and 00 buckshot, all provide better penetration, crush more tissue, and have far greater potential to reliably physiologically incapacitate an aggressor than the 5.7 x 28 mm 31 gr SS-190 FMJ bullet fired by the FN P-90. Law enforcement agencies and military special operations units are strongly urged to avoid adoption of this weapon system.
Doctor Roberts has a lot of real data...not hype
Here is a taste
Other than being able to perforate soft body armor, the 5.7 x 28 mm used in the FN P90, as well as the 4.6 x 30 mm fired from the HK MP7 cause wounds less incapacitating than those made by 9 mm FMJ fired from a pistol.
I have personally fired the 5.7 x 28 mm FN P-90; velocity, penetration, and tissue destruction is like a .17 Hornet--far less than we see with 75 gr TAP or 77 MK out of our M4’s. Winchester RA45T 230 gr JHP’s fired from our duty 1911’s crush more tissue and penetrate further than the 5.7 x 28 mm. Use of the 5.7 x 28 mm is a good way to ensure mission failure.
Several papers have described the incredibly poor terminal performance of projectiles fired by the FN P90.
--Dahlstrom D, Powley K, and Gordon C: “Wound Profile of the FN Cartridge (SS 190) Fired from the FN P90 Submachine Gun". Wound Ballistic Review. 4(3):21-26; Spring 2000.
--Fackler M: "Errors & Omissions", Wound Ballistic Review. 1(1):46; Winter 1991.
--Fackler M: "More on the Bizarre Fabrique National P-90", Wound Ballistic Review. 3(1):44-45; 1997.
--FBI Academy Firearms Training Unit. FBI Handgun Ammunition Tests 1989-1995. Quantico, U.S. Department of Justice--Federal Bureau of Investigation.
--Hayes C: “Personal Defense Weapons—Answer in Search of a Question”, Wound Ballistic Review. 5(1):30-36; Spring 2001.
--Roberts G: “Preliminary Evaluation of the Terminal Performance of the 5.7 x 28 mm 23 Grain FMJ Bullet Fired by the New FN P-90 , Using 10% Ordnance Gelatin as a Tissue Simulant”, AFTE Journal. 30(2):326-329, Spring 1998.
--Roberts G: “Terminal Performance of the 5.7 x 28 mm 31 Grain SS-190 FMJ Bullet Fired by the FN P-90 in 10% Ordnance Gelatin.”, AFTE Journal. In Press.
The early 5.7 x 28 mm 23 gr FMJ bullet fired by the FN P-90 had insufficient penetration for law enforcement and military use. The current 31 gr SS-190 FMJ bullet has nearly adequate penetration, but the wound resulting from this projectile has a relatively small permanent crush cavity, as well as an insignificant temporary stretch cavity. Although the 5.7 x 28 mm penetrates soft body armor, wounding potential is at best like a .22 LR or .22 Magnum. Even 9mm NATO FMJ makes a larger wound--and we are all aware of the awe inspiring incapacitation potential of M882 ball from the M9......
Numerous other projectiles commonly used for law enforcement and military special operations applications, such as a good 9mm, .40 S&W, or .45 ACP JHP, the better 5.56 x 45 mm BTHP/JSP loads, as well as 12 gauge shotgun slugs and 00 buckshot, all provide better penetration, crush more tissue, and have far greater potential to reliably physiologically incapacitate an aggressor than the 5.7 x 28 mm 31 gr SS-190 FMJ bullet fired by the FN P-90. Law enforcement agencies and military special operations units are strongly urged to avoid adoption of this weapon system.
Users of the FN Five-seveN
Here are a few I know of:
Belgian Air Force
Belgian Army
Belgian Army Special Forces
Belgian DSU
Cyprus National Guard
Dutch Military
French GIGN
Nepalese Army
US Atlanta SRT's (Two different departments)
US Bellavue, NE SWAT
US Dallas/Fort Worth SWAT
US Lawrenceville, GA Police Department
US Secret Service
The above list does not include some of the PD's that are using it. Any more input would be appreciated.
Belgian Air Force
Belgian Army
Belgian Army Special Forces
Belgian DSU
Cyprus National Guard
Dutch Military
French GIGN
Nepalese Army
US Atlanta SRT's (Two different departments)
US Bellavue, NE SWAT
US Dallas/Fort Worth SWAT
US Lawrenceville, GA Police Department
US Secret Service
The above list does not include some of the PD's that are using it. Any more input would be appreciated.
Users of the FN P-90
...Here is a list of the ones I know of:
Austrian Military Jagdkommando Special Unit
Belgian DSU
Belgian VIP Protection
Canada Montreal SWAT
Cyprus Army Special Forces
Cyprus Army National Guard
Dominican Republic CT Team
Dutch KCT
Dutch Marines BBE
French GIGN
French Special Forces VIP Protection
German BKA
Greek EKAM CT Unit
Israeli SABACH
Italian Police Special Forces
Mexico CT Unit
Pakistan Special Services Group
Peruvian Special Forces
Philippines CT Team
Portuguese Police GOE
Saudi Arabian Special Forces
Singapore Army Special Forces
Spanish GEO CT Unit
Swedish Army
Thai Special Forces
US Atlanta SRT
US Burbank Police Department
US Dallas/Fort Worth SWAT Team
US Federal Protective Service
US Houston, Texas SWAT Team
US Olathe, KS SWAT
US Secret Service
Venezuelan Army Special Forces
Last edited by DmL5 : 08-14-2004 at 01:22 PM.
Austrian Military Jagdkommando Special Unit
Belgian DSU
Belgian VIP Protection
Canada Montreal SWAT
Cyprus Army Special Forces
Cyprus Army National Guard
Dominican Republic CT Team
Dutch KCT
Dutch Marines BBE
French GIGN
French Special Forces VIP Protection
German BKA
Greek EKAM CT Unit
Israeli SABACH
Italian Police Special Forces
Mexico CT Unit
Pakistan Special Services Group
Peruvian Special Forces
Philippines CT Team
Portuguese Police GOE
Saudi Arabian Special Forces
Singapore Army Special Forces
Spanish GEO CT Unit
Swedish Army
Thai Special Forces
US Atlanta SRT
US Burbank Police Department
US Dallas/Fort Worth SWAT Team
US Federal Protective Service
US Houston, Texas SWAT Team
US Olathe, KS SWAT
US Secret Service
Venezuelan Army Special Forces
Last edited by DmL5 : 08-14-2004 at 01:22 PM.
5.7x28mm Ammo
There is no "AP"
Posted By: CW
Date: 9/7/04 11:14
In Response To: Is there ammo other than AP? (pmf)
The ammo that can slice through Kevlar is no designated as AP. It is called Ball ammo. The design is very interesting. It is FMJ and the front portion of the innards is steele. The rear portion of the round is aluminum. This causes the round to penetrate Kevlar, but the mass is unbalanced so it tumbles once it enters flesh. This offers the best of both worlds, penetration but not pass-through. Apparently, most of these rounds will not exit a body and are safe to shoot in a crowded area. Not bad for a pistol round with a muzzle velocity of over 2000 fps!
Unfortunately, the ball rounds are LEO. What you can buy is the hollow point rounds. The portion of the point that is hollow is extremely small; you have to look really close to even see it. But that is enough to prevent Kevlar penetration and so it isn't a "cop killer" and therefore is available to the public. I pay a little over 30 cents a round.
The Five Seven pistol was supposed to be LEO and you will find a letter in the box asking you to fill in your agency info and send in the stamped envelope, but most dealers are selling it to anyone. List price is $999 and the street price is $799. Worth every penny.
Ammo
Posted By: CW
Date: 9/7/04 18:52
In Response To: Thanks, and one more question (pmf)
Yes, someone posted here that you can get reloading dies for it. I buy the ammo by the case at http://www.arizonagunrunners.net/Products/FNMfng/Five-seveN/five-seven.html
A case of 2100 rounds runs $700 so that is 33 cents a round.
The HP rounds don't penetrate Kevlar so there is no reason to regulate them.
Re: Ammo
Posted By: Robert Silvers
Date: 9/8/04 16:36
In Response To: Ammo (CW)
The HP rounds *do* penetrate Kevlar, but that is no need to regulate them.
http://ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=16&t=197018
Ammo is not regulated by what it can penetrate -- if that were true, .30-06 would be banned because it could penetrate a lot. Performance-standards is what the anti-gun people want to impose, but the current standard is how the bullet is constructed. It needs to have a solid core of certain metals to be "AP."
Posted By: CW
Date: 9/7/04 11:14
In Response To: Is there ammo other than AP? (pmf)
The ammo that can slice through Kevlar is no designated as AP. It is called Ball ammo. The design is very interesting. It is FMJ and the front portion of the innards is steele. The rear portion of the round is aluminum. This causes the round to penetrate Kevlar, but the mass is unbalanced so it tumbles once it enters flesh. This offers the best of both worlds, penetration but not pass-through. Apparently, most of these rounds will not exit a body and are safe to shoot in a crowded area. Not bad for a pistol round with a muzzle velocity of over 2000 fps!
Unfortunately, the ball rounds are LEO. What you can buy is the hollow point rounds. The portion of the point that is hollow is extremely small; you have to look really close to even see it. But that is enough to prevent Kevlar penetration and so it isn't a "cop killer" and therefore is available to the public. I pay a little over 30 cents a round.
The Five Seven pistol was supposed to be LEO and you will find a letter in the box asking you to fill in your agency info and send in the stamped envelope, but most dealers are selling it to anyone. List price is $999 and the street price is $799. Worth every penny.
Ammo
Posted By: CW
Date: 9/7/04 18:52
In Response To: Thanks, and one more question (pmf)
Yes, someone posted here that you can get reloading dies for it. I buy the ammo by the case at http://www.arizonagunrunners.net/Products/FNMfng/Five-seveN/five-seven.html
A case of 2100 rounds runs $700 so that is 33 cents a round.
The HP rounds don't penetrate Kevlar so there is no reason to regulate them.
Re: Ammo
Posted By: Robert Silvers
Date: 9/8/04 16:36
In Response To: Ammo (CW)
The HP rounds *do* penetrate Kevlar, but that is no need to regulate them.
http://ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=16&t=197018
Ammo is not regulated by what it can penetrate -- if that were true, .30-06 would be banned because it could penetrate a lot. Performance-standards is what the anti-gun people want to impose, but the current standard is how the bullet is constructed. It needs to have a solid core of certain metals to be "AP."
Five-seveN Review
I own a 5.7 and just fired a P90
Posted By: CW
Date: 9/6/04 23:11
In Response To: FN P90 (Dwane)
The five seven is by far the finest handgun that I own. Light, accurate, deadly, and virtually no recoil. I pay about $15 a box of 50 rounds so the ammo is affordable.
I just got the chance to shoot the P90 and it is fantastic. I own most popular subguns and belt-fed, but he P90 is in a class of its own! At an indoor range, at 50 feet, I blasted a full magazine of 50 rounds, non-stop. All 50 rounds were "kills" on a human size target. Absolutely no muzzle rise and no recoil. And with ball rounds, this puppy will penetrate 38 layers of kevlar at 200 yards. The ergonomics are perfect for a SWAT team as it forces you to take the proper subgun agressive stance.
I'd love to own one of these, even in semi.
Posted By: CW
Date: 9/6/04 23:11
In Response To: FN P90 (Dwane)
The five seven is by far the finest handgun that I own. Light, accurate, deadly, and virtually no recoil. I pay about $15 a box of 50 rounds so the ammo is affordable.
I just got the chance to shoot the P90 and it is fantastic. I own most popular subguns and belt-fed, but he P90 is in a class of its own! At an indoor range, at 50 feet, I blasted a full magazine of 50 rounds, non-stop. All 50 rounds were "kills" on a human size target. Absolutely no muzzle rise and no recoil. And with ball rounds, this puppy will penetrate 38 layers of kevlar at 200 yards. The ergonomics are perfect for a SWAT team as it forces you to take the proper subgun agressive stance.
I'd love to own one of these, even in semi.
Rumors (Shotgun News) - Civilian P90
There is a write-up on FN PDW's(including the P90) in the Sept. 6th issue of shotgun news....page 12
FN P90
Posted By: Dwane
Date: 9/6/04 10:41
I was reading the latest Shotun News and the had an article about FN and their new weaps, the Five Seven and the P90.
At the end of the article they mentioned there might be some plans to make a semi-auto P90.
My question, admitting my embarrasing lack of sofidtication regarding the Import ban and such, is could this ever find its way in to the US?
Does FN have any lants here in the states?
Could they manufacture enough US parts to get over the parts limit?
It would have to have a 16 barrel, and meet some minimum overall length, right (as its a bullpup design).
BTW, I saw an airsoft P90 and bought it for shits and grins, the ergonomics are nowhere as near as strange as I thought they might be, It fits very compactly to the body, and seems that it would be very positively controlled and quick in CQB.
Cool looking black toy. Wish we could get the full thing...
From: http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=6&f=2&t=176451
Armed_Scientist
Member
Joined :: March 2001
Post Number :: 1286
OH, USA
From: http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=6&f=2&t=176451&page=4
From p99guy:
Be sure and pick up the sept.6 issue of shotgun news thats on the shelves now...it has a write up on the P90/FN57 also alludes to FN is working on a civy P90(a 16"barrel semi auto carbine P90) for the U.S. market as well as a ultra short action bolt gun in5.7x28mm
----------------------------------------------------
FN P90
Posted By: Dwane
Date: 9/6/04 10:41
I was reading the latest Shotun News and the had an article about FN and their new weaps, the Five Seven and the P90.
At the end of the article they mentioned there might be some plans to make a semi-auto P90.
My question, admitting my embarrasing lack of sofidtication regarding the Import ban and such, is could this ever find its way in to the US?
Does FN have any lants here in the states?
Could they manufacture enough US parts to get over the parts limit?
It would have to have a 16 barrel, and meet some minimum overall length, right (as its a bullpup design).
BTW, I saw an airsoft P90 and bought it for shits and grins, the ergonomics are nowhere as near as strange as I thought they might be, It fits very compactly to the body, and seems that it would be very positively controlled and quick in CQB.
Cool looking black toy. Wish we could get the full thing...
From: http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=6&f=2&t=176451
Armed_Scientist
Member
Joined :: March 2001
Post Number :: 1286
OH, USA
Originally Posted By WillMunny: I agree that a civvie P-90 would be awesome. Anyone have any more info on it, or is it just a rumor? Will |
From: http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=6&f=2&t=176451&page=4
From p99guy:
Be sure and pick up the sept.6 issue of shotgun news thats on the shelves now...it has a write up on the P90/FN57 also alludes to FN is working on a civy P90(a 16"barrel semi auto carbine P90) for the U.S. market as well as a ultra short action bolt gun in5.7x28mm
----------------------------------------------------
More Rumors Civie P90
Knife_Sniper
Member
Member
Registered: Nov 2003
Location: Texas
Posts: 99
In case some of you have missed this hovering very low key around the net (and your local Wal Mart magazine section)...
In the latest issue of Shotgun news their is a blurb at the very end of the P90 article about FN looking into the possibility of manufacturing a carbine rifle based of the FN-90. The author states that it is refreshing to see a manufacturer such as FN look in the direction at the wants of civilian shooters.
This is beyond exciting news. For a exotic weapon conesueir as myself I find this more awesome than any Steyr AUG clone that may be in the works.
I dont care if it is chambered in .17HMR, If it goes into production I will be picking one up. Yes, even if it had a really long stupid barrel. It has a ten inch barrel already, so then it would need a 6 inch long fake suppressor.
Not bad.
Discuss!
------------------------------------------
vertigo7
Senior Member
Registered: Dec 2002
Location: FL
Posts: 254
Volume 58, issue 24 (Fortier fires FN's finest firearms!), bottom of page 15.
-----------------------------------------------
P90 Magazine Rumors (Disproved - US SS Testing)
Member
Join Date: 06-26-2004
Location: Missouri - USA
Posts: 32
Quote:
In fact when they (US Secret Service) reliability tested the P90, it had only two malfunctions in 50,000 rounds out of 5 different guns. They stated in their report form the James J. Reilly Secret Service Training Center that the P90 is the most reliable weapon ever tested by that facility.Worse case scenario: Drop the mag, 1 round MIGHT fall out. If you manage to break the base plate, which is highly unlikely, you could lose the ammo. This is true for any magazine. One of the FN reps I talked to fired over 85,000 rounds in demos over a 3 year period and has never heard of such a thing.
Civilian P90 Rumors (Tentative for sale)
Wildalaska
Senior Member
Ken
General Manager
Janitor, Shipping Clerk, WebMaster and Condescending Bastard
Wild West Guns Inc
www.wildwestguns.com
wwguns@ak.net
Wildalaska
Senior Member
Ken
General Manager
Janitor, Shipping Clerk, WebMaster and Condescending Bastard
Wild West Guns Inc
www.wildwestguns.com
wwguns@ak.net
Senior Member
Registered: Dec 2002
Location: Anchorage, Alaska
Posts: 5295
Im working a deal for FN P90Cs. These are civlian versions of the P90 (semi auto 16 inch barrel). My understanding is that there will be about 200 of them imported by January. Retail will be around $2000 9less I think), although the "gougers" will get more...but we have a line on 50 so not everybody will get hosed
So I will take reservations. Its either yes or no. Dont ask me any questions about the guns, I dont know. In three weeks or so once I get the go ahead, I will be asking for deposit of $1000. Thats n0on refundable unless we cant get the guns.
No tire kickers please. wwguns@ak.net
Ken
General Manager
Janitor, Shipping Clerk, WebMaster and Condescending Bastard
Wild West Guns Inc
www.wildwestguns.com
wwguns@ak.net
Wildalaska
Senior Member
Registered: Dec 2002
Location: Anchorage, Alaska
Posts: 5295
Credit cards is OK..if ya want to get in send the usual email and I will put ya on the list for notification
__________________Ken
General Manager
Janitor, Shipping Clerk, WebMaster and Condescending Bastard
Wild West Guns Inc
www.wildwestguns.com
wwguns@ak.net
Rumors (Disproven?) Civilian P90
cslinger
Senior Member
Senior Member
Registered: Dec 2002
Location: Nashville, TN
Posts: 1826
Well I had heard that FN might possibly market a semi auto 16inch barrel in the near future should the AWB go away.
Well my local dealer said that he has two on pre-order and that it is official that they are making a civilian version.
........might just be the gun that I pay the $200 SBR fee for me thinks.
Just a heads up.
Chris
------------------------------------------
SOT_II
Senior Member
Registered: Oct 2003
Location:
Posts: 111
I'd call FN directly for the scoop on this. Considering the p90 is made outside the US it won't meet the parts count and in turn won't be availible for sale to civilians.
FNMI produces guns adopted by the US military in the US as per contract (and even that production is limited). As the p90 has suffered poor sales in the US there is very little or no reason for it to be produced here.
Also consider this before everyone starts thinking all the machine guns and evil featured assault weapons will end up on the shores of the US when the ban goes away...it takes MONTHS and millions of dollars to ramp up a product line.
If the AWB goes away, do you think at some point something new won't replace it? Do you think a MFG in their right mind is going to commit the money and resource to MAYBE sell a few thousand units of a given gun? Do you think they are going to take the months of effort and documentation to get approval for a gun from the BATFE when they full well don't even know if the ban is going away or if it will stay away?
-----------------------------------------------------
shoobe01
Senior Member
Registered: Mar 2004
Location: Kansas City
Posts: 297
David Fortier, in his recent article on FN in the SGN, categorically states that there is to be a semi-auto P90 and in general FN is committed to US civilian sales. He write this while on a visit to the FN plant in Herstal, so I tend to believe it.
Friday, September 24, 2004
FN Five-seveN (Game Stats) (Cool Pics too)
Fabrique Nationale Model Five seveN
Introduced in 1996 the Five-seveN is a curious pistol, designed to fire the same round used in the P-90 PDW it makes extensive user of polymer construction to reduce weight. Intended for use as a service issue pistol the weapon is design with rail mountings under the barrel to allow for the use of flashlight or laser sight attachments. Currently the weapon has not been adopted by any country though it is understood that British Police Authorities are testing the weapon for possible adoption, the Dallas/Fort Worth SWAT are also believed to be testing the Five seveN and P90 as well.
R Evaluation: FN's Model Five seveN has quite a row in the staff here, we have obtained quantities of it for testing to determine it's suitability for our agents. The ballistics of the handgun is the same as the P90 submachine gun. This does make for some commonality of ammunition between a sidearm and primary weapon but some of the armorers here feel the weapon is ill suited for a handgun and will cause over penetration. As such we have only obtained a small quantities of these handguns for testing. 004 has agreed to carry one in the field to determine the effectiveness of the design for us.
Introduced in 1996 the Five-seveN is a curious pistol, designed to fire the same round used in the P-90 PDW it makes extensive user of polymer construction to reduce weight. Intended for use as a service issue pistol the weapon is design with rail mountings under the barrel to allow for the use of flashlight or laser sight attachments. Currently the weapon has not been adopted by any country though it is understood that British Police Authorities are testing the weapon for possible adoption, the Dallas/Fort Worth SWAT are also believed to be testing the Five seveN and P90 as well.
R Evaluation: FN's Model Five seveN has quite a row in the staff here, we have obtained quantities of it for testing to determine it's suitability for our agents. The ballistics of the handgun is the same as the P90 submachine gun. This does make for some commonality of ammunition between a sidearm and primary weapon but some of the armorers here feel the weapon is ill suited for a handgun and will cause over penetration. As such we have only obtained a small quantities of these handguns for testing. 004 has agreed to carry one in the field to determine the effectiveness of the design for us.
FN P90 (Game Stats)
FN P90 History:The FN P90 submachine gun (SMG) was developed in the late 1980s as a defensive weapon for the troops whose primary activities does not include small arms, like vehicle and tank crew members, etc. Standard pistols and other SMGs chambered for pistol rounds were proved ineffective against enemy soldiers, wearing armour vests, so FN developed a new round with enhanced penetration - the SS190. The P90 can be seen as a forerunner of the PDW (Personal Defence Weapon) concept. Facts & Specs:
Caliber: 5.7x28mm SS190
Function: blowback operated, selective fire submachine gun (semiautomatic and full-auto fire)
Weight: 2.54 kg empty; 3.0 kg loaded with magazine with 50 rounds
Length: 500 mm
Barrel: 263 mm
Magazine capacity: 50 rounds
Muzzle velocity: 715 m/s
Maximum effective range: 150 meters
Sights: optical reflex sight with no magnification
Cyclic: 900 (rpm) rounds per minute
Manufacturer: Fabrique Nationale; Belgium
Accuracy: The P90 provides rapid target acquisition and outstanding hit probability out to 150 meters. A day reticle, which is projected into the sight from the front, features a circular reticle which provides very rapid target acquisition throughout the effective range of the weapon. The reticle has several markings which complement each other. A very large circular reticle provides fast target acquisition at panic-close range, while a much smaller circle is optimized for target acquisition at 100 meters.
Reliability: Cycling is reliable. The design and materials of the P90 also make the weapon very easy to clean, a process that only takes about four minutes. This appeals to military SpecOps personnel, who have a special affection for weapons that require a minimum of maintenance.
Weight: The P90 weighs 2.5 kg with an empty magazine and 3.0 kg with a fully loaded 50-round magazine, which is similar to the weight of an MP5 with a 30-round magazine. Size: With an overall length of just 50.0 cm, the P90 is considerably shorter than the 9x19mm H&K MP5 submachine gun or the 5.56x45mm Colt M4 carbine. The P90 is just 21.0 cm high with a magazine fitted to the weapon.
Recoil: Recoil is brisk but very smooth. Shot dispersion remains remarkably tight, thanks in part to the fact that the 5.7x28mm cartridge has about one-third of the recoil impulse produced by the 5.56x45mm round used in the M16 family of weapons.
Stopping Power: The P90 is capable to penetrate standard PASGT vests (kevlar) at 200 meters and standard CRISAT vests (titanium + kevlar) at 100 meters.
Additional notes: P90 can be equipped with a special silencer, that should then be used with a special, sub-sonic variant of the 5.7x28mm cartridge. The P90 can be supplied with an integrated laser. This laser is fully integrated into the receiver without modifying the weapon's outer shape, balance and ergonomics. Either a visible "red dot" laser or an infra-red laser for use in conjunction with night vision equipment can be chosen.
Caliber: 5.7x28mm SS190
Function: blowback operated, selective fire submachine gun (semiautomatic and full-auto fire)
Weight: 2.54 kg empty; 3.0 kg loaded with magazine with 50 rounds
Length: 500 mm
Barrel: 263 mm
Magazine capacity: 50 rounds
Muzzle velocity: 715 m/s
Maximum effective range: 150 meters
Sights: optical reflex sight with no magnification
Cyclic: 900 (rpm) rounds per minute
Manufacturer: Fabrique Nationale; Belgium
Accuracy: The P90 provides rapid target acquisition and outstanding hit probability out to 150 meters. A day reticle, which is projected into the sight from the front, features a circular reticle which provides very rapid target acquisition throughout the effective range of the weapon. The reticle has several markings which complement each other. A very large circular reticle provides fast target acquisition at panic-close range, while a much smaller circle is optimized for target acquisition at 100 meters.
Reliability: Cycling is reliable. The design and materials of the P90 also make the weapon very easy to clean, a process that only takes about four minutes. This appeals to military SpecOps personnel, who have a special affection for weapons that require a minimum of maintenance.
Weight: The P90 weighs 2.5 kg with an empty magazine and 3.0 kg with a fully loaded 50-round magazine, which is similar to the weight of an MP5 with a 30-round magazine. Size: With an overall length of just 50.0 cm, the P90 is considerably shorter than the 9x19mm H&K MP5 submachine gun or the 5.56x45mm Colt M4 carbine. The P90 is just 21.0 cm high with a magazine fitted to the weapon.
Recoil: Recoil is brisk but very smooth. Shot dispersion remains remarkably tight, thanks in part to the fact that the 5.7x28mm cartridge has about one-third of the recoil impulse produced by the 5.56x45mm round used in the M16 family of weapons.
Stopping Power: The P90 is capable to penetrate standard PASGT vests (kevlar) at 200 meters and standard CRISAT vests (titanium + kevlar) at 100 meters.
Additional notes: P90 can be equipped with a special silencer, that should then be used with a special, sub-sonic variant of the 5.7x28mm cartridge. The P90 can be supplied with an integrated laser. This laser is fully integrated into the receiver without modifying the weapon's outer shape, balance and ergonomics. Either a visible "red dot" laser or an infra-red laser for use in conjunction with night vision equipment can be chosen.
Fabrique Nationale (FN) Five-seveN (Game Stats)
Fabrique Nationale (FN) Five-seveN
History:The Five-seveN pistol was designed as a complimentary sidearm for the P90 submachine-gun. The P90 and Five-seveN share the same ammunition, the 5.7x28mm SS190 cartridge. The key idea behind that ammunition and weapons is to provide good penetration against personnel, protected by modern body armour, while keeping weapons' weight, dimensions and recoil at reasonable levels.
Facts & Specs:
Caliber: 5.7x28mm SS190
Function: Semi-automatic, Double Action Only or Single Action (in Tactical model) pistol
Weight: 620 g with empty magazine; ca. 760 g loaded
Length: 208 mm
Barrel: 122,5 mm long
Magazine capacity: 20 rounds
Muzzle velocity: 650 m/s
Sights: Standard combat; optional night sight with luminous dot
Maximum effective range: 50 m
Manufacturer: Fabrique Nationale, Belgium
Accuracy: The Five-seveN is easily controllable as it remains aligned on the target, thereby facilitating fast and controllable follow-up shots.
Reliability: High
Weight: Weighing 30% less than most 9mm pistols, the Five-seveN is comfortable to carry and quick to deploy.
Size: Medium. Well balanced, with smooth contours and no protruding parts, the pistol will instinctively be handled correctly.
Muzzle Flash: Recoil impulse results in virtually no muzzle climb.
Stopping Power: The Five-seveN is capable to penetrate standard PASGT vests (kevlar) at 300 meters and standard CRISAT vests (titanium + kevlar) at 100 meters.
History:The Five-seveN pistol was designed as a complimentary sidearm for the P90 submachine-gun. The P90 and Five-seveN share the same ammunition, the 5.7x28mm SS190 cartridge. The key idea behind that ammunition and weapons is to provide good penetration against personnel, protected by modern body armour, while keeping weapons' weight, dimensions and recoil at reasonable levels.
Facts & Specs:
Caliber: 5.7x28mm SS190
Function: Semi-automatic, Double Action Only or Single Action (in Tactical model) pistol
Weight: 620 g with empty magazine; ca. 760 g loaded
Length: 208 mm
Barrel: 122,5 mm long
Magazine capacity: 20 rounds
Muzzle velocity: 650 m/s
Sights: Standard combat; optional night sight with luminous dot
Maximum effective range: 50 m
Manufacturer: Fabrique Nationale, Belgium
Accuracy: The Five-seveN is easily controllable as it remains aligned on the target, thereby facilitating fast and controllable follow-up shots.
Reliability: High
Weight: Weighing 30% less than most 9mm pistols, the Five-seveN is comfortable to carry and quick to deploy.
Size: Medium. Well balanced, with smooth contours and no protruding parts, the pistol will instinctively be handled correctly.
Muzzle Flash: Recoil impulse results in virtually no muzzle climb.
Stopping Power: The Five-seveN is capable to penetrate standard PASGT vests (kevlar) at 300 meters and standard CRISAT vests (titanium + kevlar) at 100 meters.
FN HERSTAL - SMALL ARMS AND WEAPON SYSTEMS
FN HERSTAL - SMALL ARMS AND WEAPON SYSTEMS
Under the brand names FN HERSTAL, Browning and Winchester, the Herstal Group equips virtually the entire world and owes its worldwide recognition to its capacity for invention, its continuing commitment to quality and its thorough understanding of the customers' needs.
FN HERSTAL designs, manufactures and distributes a full range of firearms and accessories for defense and law enforcement as well as sells a full range of airborne weapon systems for multi-role helicopters and subsonic aircraft. FN HERSTAL not only supplies the customer with machine gun specially adapted to airborne applications, it also integrates the weaponry into the carrier by providing and installing suspension masts, stores and management systems, electrical cabling and sighting devices
5.7 X 28mm WEAPON SYSTEM
The 5.7 x 28mm Weapon System is based around the SS190 round which can be fired by both the P90® submachine gun and the Five-seveN® pistol. Both weapons are ergonomically designed with no protruding parts and can be field stripped without tools in a very short amount of time.
P90® SUBMACHINE GUN
With a maximum effective range of 200m and a 900rpm firing rate, this 3kg weapon is highly versatile, having both single shot and fully automatic firing modes. The P90® is fitted with an integrated optical sight that allows the user to shoot with both eyes open; this can easily be replaced with other types of sights.
FIVE-SEVEN® TACTICAL PISTOL
The Five-seveN® tactical pistol is a single action pistol with hidden hammer characterised by a short, light trigger pull for fast accurate shooting.
As well as the standard model, FN HERSTAL also produces the P90® Tactical which features a Picatinny rail allowing different types of sights to be mounted.
The Five-seveN® Tactical pistol has extremely low recoil which results in virtually no muzzle jump.
Under the brand names FN HERSTAL, Browning and Winchester, the Herstal Group equips virtually the entire world and owes its worldwide recognition to its capacity for invention, its continuing commitment to quality and its thorough understanding of the customers' needs.
FN HERSTAL designs, manufactures and distributes a full range of firearms and accessories for defense and law enforcement as well as sells a full range of airborne weapon systems for multi-role helicopters and subsonic aircraft. FN HERSTAL not only supplies the customer with machine gun specially adapted to airborne applications, it also integrates the weaponry into the carrier by providing and installing suspension masts, stores and management systems, electrical cabling and sighting devices
5.7 X 28mm WEAPON SYSTEM
The 5.7 x 28mm Weapon System is based around the SS190 round which can be fired by both the P90® submachine gun and the Five-seveN® pistol. Both weapons are ergonomically designed with no protruding parts and can be field stripped without tools in a very short amount of time.
P90® SUBMACHINE GUN
With a maximum effective range of 200m and a 900rpm firing rate, this 3kg weapon is highly versatile, having both single shot and fully automatic firing modes. The P90® is fitted with an integrated optical sight that allows the user to shoot with both eyes open; this can easily be replaced with other types of sights.
FIVE-SEVEN® TACTICAL PISTOL
The Five-seveN® tactical pistol is a single action pistol with hidden hammer characterised by a short, light trigger pull for fast accurate shooting.
As well as the standard model, FN HERSTAL also produces the P90® Tactical which features a Picatinny rail allowing different types of sights to be mounted.
The Five-seveN® Tactical pistol has extremely low recoil which results in virtually no muzzle jump.
Thursday, September 23, 2004
More P90 Pics (gaming stuff)
FN P90: Here Come the Belgians
The P90 TR (left) and the standard P90
Again developed for tank, artillery and air crew, FN Herstal trialled many types of pistol ammunition before developing the 5.7x28mm cartridge. Much like a scaled down 5.56mm rifle cartridge, the 5.7 round has similar ballistic and penetration characteristics as H&K's 4.6mm round, leaving the muzzle of the 'ninety at around 6-700 metres per second.
The P90 is a blowback operated, selective fire weapon. It is fed from 50-rounds box magazines, made from transluscent polymer. The magazine is being located above the barrel, with the cartridges being aligned at 90 degrees to the barrel axis. Each magazine has built-in ramp that rotates cartridge to align it with the barrel prior to chambering it.
As with most PDW class weapons, the P90 controls are completely ambidextrous, with charging handles located at the both sides of the weapon, and the safety/fire mode selector is located below the trigger. The P90 also features downward ejection of the spent cases. Built in a bullpup configuration, and constructed largely of polymer components, the standard P90 features a built-in reflex collimator sight with 1X magnification and light sensitive reticule as well as a set conventional iron sights situated above the optic array. The variant P90 TR (tactical rail) features a rail integration system (RIS) for further tactical optimisation. Both can be used with the optional silencer/suppressor unit in conjunction with 5.7mm subsonic round.
The P90 and one point sling
Caliber: 5.7x28mm
Weight: 2.54 kg empty; 3 kg loaded with 50 round magazine
Length: 500 mm
Barrel length: 263 mm
Rate of fire: 900 rounds per minute
Magazine capacity: 50 rounds
Effective range: 200 meters
The P90 TR (left) and the standard P90
Again developed for tank, artillery and air crew, FN Herstal trialled many types of pistol ammunition before developing the 5.7x28mm cartridge. Much like a scaled down 5.56mm rifle cartridge, the 5.7 round has similar ballistic and penetration characteristics as H&K's 4.6mm round, leaving the muzzle of the 'ninety at around 6-700 metres per second.
The P90 is a blowback operated, selective fire weapon. It is fed from 50-rounds box magazines, made from transluscent polymer. The magazine is being located above the barrel, with the cartridges being aligned at 90 degrees to the barrel axis. Each magazine has built-in ramp that rotates cartridge to align it with the barrel prior to chambering it.
As with most PDW class weapons, the P90 controls are completely ambidextrous, with charging handles located at the both sides of the weapon, and the safety/fire mode selector is located below the trigger. The P90 also features downward ejection of the spent cases. Built in a bullpup configuration, and constructed largely of polymer components, the standard P90 features a built-in reflex collimator sight with 1X magnification and light sensitive reticule as well as a set conventional iron sights situated above the optic array. The variant P90 TR (tactical rail) features a rail integration system (RIS) for further tactical optimisation. Both can be used with the optional silencer/suppressor unit in conjunction with 5.7mm subsonic round.
The P90 and one point sling
Caliber: 5.7x28mm
Weight: 2.54 kg empty; 3 kg loaded with 50 round magazine
Length: 500 mm
Barrel length: 263 mm
Rate of fire: 900 rounds per minute
Magazine capacity: 50 rounds
Effective range: 200 meters
P90 and Five-seveN fan blurb
Above (from Left to Right):
FN P90 A new PDW (personal Defense Weapon) that fires a 5.7 round that can easily penetrate Body Armor
FN P90 A new PDW (personal Defense Weapon) that fires a 5.7 round that can easily penetrate Body Armor
FN P90 brochure with it's specifications
Above:
FN FiveSeven
Type Double Action Only or Single Action (in Tactical model) Delayed Blowback
Chambering 5.7x28mm SS190
Height 5.40"
Length: Overall) 8.20" (208 mm)
Barrel length : 4.82" (122.5 mm)
Weight: 1.64 lbs (Empty Magazine) (ca. 620 g with empty magazine; ca. 760 g loaded)
Magazine 20 rounds
The Five-seveN pistol was designed by FN company (Belgium) as a complimentary sidearm for the P90 submachine-gun. The P90 and Five-seveN share the same ammunition, the 5.7x28mm SS190 cartridge. The SS190 ammunition looks like scaled down 5.56mm NATO round and boosts the 2.02 gram (31 grains) pointed steel and aluminum core bullet to the muzzle velocity of 650 meters per second (ca. 2130 fps) from the pistol barrel. The key idea behind that ammunition and weapons is to provide good penetration against personnel, protected by modern body armor, while keeping weapons' weight, dimensions and recoil at the reasonable levels.
The Five-seveN is a delayed blowback operated, semi-automatic firearm. It featured polymer frame with underbarrel accessory rail. The gun is available in two versions: Five-seveN standard, intended mostly for military users, and Five-seveN Tactical, intended mostly for Law Enforcement users who carry handguns as a primary weapons. The only difference between Standard and Tactical models is in the trigger type: the Five-seveN standard features Double Action Only trigger with long trigger pull and no external safeties; The Five-seveN Tactical featured Single Action trigger with short and light trigger pull and ambidextrous safety switch, located on the frame above the trigger. Both variants are striker fired, with internal firing pin safety. The sights are fixed, with optional night sights (with luminous dots inserts) available.
The Five-seveN is advertised as being capable to penetrate standard PAGST vest at 300 meters and standard CRISAT (Kevlar + titanium) vest at 100 meters.
The Five-seveN is available from FN for government or law enforcement sales only.
FN IOM For Sale - Botach
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| Order Form / Law Letter Needed To Order Pistol |
FN Representatives and Distributors - Western US (Official FN)
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FNH USA, Inc. | |||
TRANS WESTERN SALES | |||
| Corporate Office | Representatives | ||
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| Rocky Green Trans Western Sales 2900 S. Highland Dr.,Bldg.18 Unit C LasVegas, NV 89109 T: 949-770-3367 F: 949-770-2124 e: fnhusawest@msn.com | Rocky Green T: 949-770-3367 F: 949-770-2124 e: fnhusawest@msn.com | ||
| Kip Olson T: 970-856-9432 F: 970-856-9438 e: outwestko@aol.com | |||
Distributors | |||
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| A.L.D. Company, Inc. 1380 Greg Street, Suite 206 Sparks, NV 89431 | London Lewis | ||
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| Arizona Gun Runners PO Box 350 4154 No. HWY 87 Pine, AZ 85544 www.azgunruner@aol.com | Gary Lovetro T: 928-476-3066 F: 928-476-3155 e: azgunruner@aol.com | ||
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| Botach Tactical 3423 W. 43rd Place LosAngeles, CA 90008 www.botach@yahoo.com | Efraim Diveroli T: 323-294-5555 F: 323-294-3542 e: efraim_botach@yahoo.com | ||
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| Davidson's West 6100 Wilkinson Drive Prescott, AZ 86301 www.davidisonsinc.com | John Werkhoven T: 800-367-5855 F: 928-776-0344 e: rnorman@davidsonsinc.com | ||
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| Richie's Guns & Ammo HC 33 Box 2858 1260 North Kim Street Wasilla, AK 99654 | Richard Solberg T: 907-229-5556 F: 907-522-4530 e: AlaskaRichie@hotmail.com | ||
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| S.G. Distributing 12615 Colony Street Chino, CA 91710 | Andy McCormick T: 909-590-7424 F: 909-590-7916 e: andym@turners.com | ||
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| TAC Weapons, USA Inc. 4075 West 4715 South Salt Lake City, UT 84118 | Steve Palano T: 801-967-8005 F: 801-967-8144 e: guns@darnfastnet.com | ||
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Five seveN Tactical (Official FN)
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FNH USA, Inc. | |
Five-seveN TACTICAL |
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FN P90 (Official FN)
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FNH USA, Inc. | |
P90 SUB-MACHINE GUN |
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5.7x28mm Weapon System
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FNH USA, Inc. | |
The 5.7x28mm weapon system is comprised of three components: the 5.7x28mm ammunition, the P90 Sub-machine gun, and the Five-seveN handguns. The 5.7x28mm SS190 ammunition has been designed to bridge the gap between the 9mm ammunition and the 5.56 x 45mm. The 9mm FMJ round will not penetrate modern body armor and the 5.56mm (.223 Rem.) rifle ammunition creates over-penetration concerns in a close combat situation or urban warfare. The SS190 has unique design, utilizing two metal inserts. The tip of the ogive has a steel penetrator followed by an aluminum core that is heavier than the forward tip. This causes the bullet to tumble in soft body tissue after 2 inches of penetration. This design virtually eliminates the risk of over penetration. This also creates a large wound cavity and quick incapacitation. The SS190 will perforate 48 layers of Kevlar up to 200 meters when fired from the P90 and achieve the same result up to 50 meters with the Five-seveN handgun. The 5.7 ammunition has only 60% of the recoil impulse of a 9mm. The muzzle velocity of the SS190 is 2,346fps when fired from the P90 and 2,133fps with the Five-seveN. Tracer, Sub Sonic, Training and Blank ammunition available. Ammunition is supplied in the U.S. by Olin. |
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