Positive Opinions

Quote:

Here is a list of the US police departments using the Five-seveN and/or P-90: Houston, TX PD Jacksonville, FL PD Salt Lake City, PD MO St Hwy Patrol Creve Coeur, MO PD Edmond, OK PD Little Rock, AR PD North Little Rock, AR PD Burmingham , AL PD Benton County, AR Sheriffs Dept Bentonville, AR PD Belleview, NE PD Olathe, KS PD Palm Beach County, FL Sheriffs Dept US Dept of Immigration & Naturalization Richland County, SC PD Souix Falls, SD SWAT Batesburg/Leesville, SC PD Davis County, UT Sheriffs Dept Pasco County, FL Sheriffs Dept Zephyr Hills, FL PD Charlston County, SC Sheriffs Dept Oakdale, MN PD Lexington, SC PD Anderson County, SC Sheriffs Dept Washoe County, NV Sheriffs Dept Whiteoak Borough, PA PD City of Daleville, AL Greenwood County, SC Sheriffs Dept Camden, SC PD Dallas, TX PD Austin, TX PD Slidell, LA PD Davidson, NC PD Duluth, GA PD Examples of single shot kills: - Houston PD Swat - Single shot to the chest. Tumbled into the heart and cut it in half. - Doraville, GA. Swat - Single neck shot; severed spinal cord. - Lima, Peru. Japanese Embassy. - Single shot to the chest, through level III body armor. A quote regarding the US Secret Service (who use the P-90 and Five-seveN): "If you have any question about the effectiveness of this round, I would encourage you to call Sgt. Sandy Wall at Houston PD SWAT and ask him about the shooting they had where the suspects heart was literally cut in two halves. I would also get in touch with the US Secret Service who has done extensive ballistic testing with this system. They are so impressed that they are replacing all 9mm sub machine guns with the P90. Do you think for a second that they would adopt a system that would not even work as well as what they had? In fact when they reliability tested the P90, it had only two malfunctions in 50,000 rounds out of 5 different guns. They stated in their report form the James J. Reilly Secret Service Training Center that the P90 is the most reliable weapon ever tested by that facility. Another interesting point that comes form this testing is that Dr. Fackler told the Secret Service before the tests that this system is ineffective. The Secret Service on the other hand had this to say... "While we respect Dr. Fackler's opinion, we have found this system to be a extremely effective system and we feel confident adopting it, we find that the 5.7x28mm system supports all claims made by FN concerning the effectiveness of this system" Another quote: To make the statement that Dr. Roberts does undermines his credibility and that of the people in the ballistic community. Gelatin is not human tissue. Dr. Fackler has been wrong before and I believe he wrong here as well. The proof is in the adoption of this system by the US Federal Government as well as over 25 counties across the globe. In the assault on the Japanese embassy in Lima, Peru, which is where the P90/5.7 system first went operational, all of the hostage takers were eliminated through their level 3 body armor. This includes the leader who was hit with one round through his body armor and expired. There are dozens of state and local departments here in the US who have adopted the system. I don't know of one department who said that the system was not effective ballistically. All the experience and real life examples speaks louder than any single round fired into a mold or a "professional" writing up ballistics on paper. And another: The SS190 bullet is almost 1 in. long. If it were passing sideways through soft tissue, which is what it does when it tumbles, it would certainly create at least a 1" wound cavity. Now, add to that syntactical energy produced by the round traveling 2300 fps (P90) or 2100 (FsN) and you have soft tissue tearing off the axis' (ends) of the bullet creating a much larger permanent wound cavity. I have done gelatin testing with this system and every police officer that saw it was needless to say very impressed. This system has also had a 100% fatality rate in the U.S. One subject in Sioux Fall S.D. was shot in the hand and the arm through a solid core door. He lost two fingers off his gun hand and the bone in his arm was shattered, leaving him with little use of the arm. Interesting note about the one person who managed to survive an attack from the P90 – The round went through a solid core door and was already starting to tumble. By the time it reached his bone, the round hit it flat and didn’t just break his arm, it powdered the bone within. Also, knocking two fingers off his gun hand. Houston PD shot a subject who was firing at them with an AR-15. The subject was hit in the chest and the bullet tumbled into his heart, cutting it into two pieces. The coroner remarked that he had never seen a wound like that. The bullet also did not exit his body. I doubt that if this round had a wound channel that resembled a .22 Mag, it would do that sort of damage. Also the Secret Service and the Federal Protective Service has adopted the P90 as their new PDW. They did exhaustive tests of both reliability and ballistics. Again, I would like to hear (from anyone) who has a CREDIBLE source of information that is able to discredit this round legitimately. So far, no one has presented me with enough evidence to suggest this round should not be used to save someone’s life. In fact, I am retracting an earlier statement I made before – I would certainly use the Five-seveN system as a concealed weapon and a protective device for my own personal defense. It’s safe, light, easy to shoot, powerful and it has been field-tested to have a proven performance record time and time again. I wish the departments and the US government would be willing to hand over their independent ballistics test results. I want to see the data that changed the Secret Service’s mind in the face of evidence presented by the experts. Note that the Secret Service WILL give their findings over to law enforcement departments who request the information. This information is confidential. But I’m sure it’s what other LE agencies are basing their judgments on. I’m asking my question again – Who has proof this round is a failure? And if no one can answer this question then I’d like to know – Why is there such a determined and organized effort out to discredit a perfectly good round of ammunition? It does everything FN said it would do. It is a disservice to present comdemning opinions without researching the actual field tests and people who use it. It is a disservice to FN and the people who represent that factory. But worse, it is a disservice to the 5.7x28, a round of ammunition that has been designed to save lives while causing minimal collateral damage. Please stop throwing Dr Fackler into the discussion. He has already been publicly discredited by the Secret Service. He has absolutely no legitimacy to this topic. I’ll reiterate the statement from the Secret Service: "While we respect Dr. Fackler's opinion, we have found this system to be a extremely effective system and we feel confident adopting it, we find that the 5.7x28mm system supports all claims made by FN concerning the effectiveness of this system" But I implore you, do not take my word for what I’ve said. Do your own research. Get out of your labs and talk to the people who trust their lives to this system every day. Talk to the agencies who stepped up and did their own independent ballistics research. If I ask you to take my findings as the truth, then my findings would be no more valuable than an individual posting opinions in the Wound Ballistic Review.

I found the above posts in a 5.7mm-related thread recently; the 5.7mm has up until now been completely doubted but has now proven very effective in combat. Real life performance is the real deal, gel tests are not. Dr Fackler himself said this: "Lab testing is one thing. But real world hits on people tell a different story." Also, as gunrunner mentioned, Dr Roberts only stated his opinion of the 5.7mm, he didn't present any data that would back him up. Also, i've researched 'Doc GKR', and am very unimpressed with how he has treated others whose opinions differ from his.