Cienner 22LR Conversions

I picked up one of these for my Mini-14

Corbin's Bullet Swaging and such

J and D Components' Sabots

Sabots

http://jdcomponents.com/Products/products.html

Five-seveN (Gunshops - Arizona)

Arizona Gunrunners
Gary Loventro (Owner/Operator)
P.O. Box 350, 4154 N. Hwy 87 (MAP)
Pine, AZ 85544
Office: +1 928 476 3066
Fax: +1 928 476 3155
( Five-seveN, P90, Ammo )

Arizona Sportsman (Multiple Locations)
2314 East Bell Road (MAP)
Phoenix, Arizona 85022
Telephone: +1 602 765 0468
Fax: +1 602 765 0704
Hours: 9-7 M-F, 9-6 Sat/Sun
( Five-seveN )

Arizona Tactical / Shooter's World
3828 North 28th Ave (MAP)
Phoenix, Az 85017
+1 602 266 2600
Fax: +1 602 728 0930
TOLL FREE 888-843-1992
info@azshootersworld.com
Monday thru Friday 9am-8pm
Saturday and Sunday 9am-6pm

Bear Arms
10269 N Scottsdale Rd (MAP)
Paradise Valley, AZ 85253-1424
Phone: +1 480 998 2727
M-F 10-7
Sat 10-5
Sun 11-5

Legendary Guns
5130 N. 19th Ave., #9 (MAP)
Phoenix, AZ. 85015
602-242-1195
(FN Five-seveN)

Scottsdale Gun Club
14860 N. Northsight Blvd. (MAP)
Scottsdale, Arizona 85260
Phone: +1 480 348 1111
Fax: +1 480 348 1113
M-F: 10am-8pm
Sat: 9am-7pm
Sun: 9am-6pm

Gun Showroom
(Barney and David)
2441 E. Madison St. (MAP)
Phoenix, AZ 85034-2638
Phone: +1 602 286 0636
Fax: +1 602 286 0659
Toll-Free: (888)286-0636
M-F: 10am-6:30pm
Sat: 10am-4pm
Sun: Closed

Five-seveN (Blue Guns)

John Ring of Movie Guns/Blue Guns (Ring's Manufacturing) indicates:

First, The FN 5.7 model we have a mold of is the older tactical version (per your photos).

Next, the moviegun site is our complete mold listing for propmasters to view an order rubber props.
Some of these molds are many years old and we cannot guarantee that the dimensions are correct.
We cast our molds in silicone and in time silicone begins to shrink, this will result in a smaller weapon.
We are able to cast most of the moviegun weapons in both the urethane foam rubber and the urethane plastic (same as our training weapons).

You may place your order via phone, fax or email. We accept all major credit cards.

5.7mm x 28mm Weapons (Existing and Proposed)

FN produces various models of the Five-seveN and of the P90.

Clymer produces chamber reamers.

A Carbine Conversion Unit (CCU), as produced by MechTech, would be interesting.

A re-chambered Beretta CX4 Storm would be interesting.

It might be easier to work with something that already shoots small .22 cartridges (like the .22 Hornet, .22 Remington Jet, .218 Bee, .219 Donaldson Wasp, etc.)

Other options might be anything that fires the .224 BOZ.

Form-factor-wise, anything that fires the .30 Carbine cartridge might also hold promise. Performance using 5.7x28 ammuntion would probably be less than .223 MIKE, 22 Spitfire (AKA 5.7mm Johnson, AKA MMJ 5.7mm), or 22 Carbine wildcats. The M1 and M1A1 carbine configurations, and Iver Johnson Enforcer pistol come to mind. The Johnson Spitfire Rifle is just one example.

Conversions from .223 might include the Olympic Arms OA-93,

Feeding 5.7x28 cartridges into an AR might be accomplished similarly to OA's pistol caliber conversions, but using modified M1 magazines instead of modified Uzi magazines.

Something like the Colt MARS (Mini Assault Rifle System) would be the goal.

5.7mm x 28mm Ammunition (Reloading)

Update circa 06/15/2005

The following note was posted on the FiveseveNForum, apparently from an RCBS employee.

The desired parts for the 5.7X28 are now available to order:

99245 #45 shell holder

90345 #45 Trim Pro Shell Holder

88845 #45 5 Station Shell Plate

11703 Small Base Die Set 5.7x28 (FN)

11701 FL Die Set 5.7x28 (FN)

Not everything has been produced yet but should be manufactured in the next few weeks. At least you can get the item ordered.

The information above should supercede what's been provided previously (below) regarding the special order dies.
----------------------------------
Ammoguide provides some case dimensions, but their information seems somewhat out of date and possibly innacurate.

Mike Haas and I exchanged some email regarding the statement above, so please see below for additional facts and insight:

Stephen,

Thanks, I'd appreciate that. I'm always eager to work with experts in trying to insure that AmmoGuide is accurate. Every page has a "Support" link that can be used to contact me, whether the visitor is a member or not. In the future, please contact me if you have any concerns about anything you see on the site. I value input from people as knowledgable as yourself and AmmoGuide is much the better for it. But if I don't hear from you, I can't address any issues.

I believe you are correct that my original 5.7x28mm dimensions were hand-measured (submitted by a visitor over my Cartridge Creator http://ammoguide.com/runcreator.html ) but also believe the textual description immediately below the diagram noted same in the first sentence. Sometimes SAAMI case diagrams just can't be found, but I try to make it very clear if dimensions are hand-derived. I have published reference books that have hand-measured dimensions noted on some of their diagrams, so the practice is nothing new. Since originally putting up the 5.7x28mm page, my research has turned up what I believe are more reliable dimensions and I revised the diagram and text accordingly. I would very much appreciate your review...

5.7x28mm FN - http://ammoguide.com/?catid=253

You have a nice website also, and I'm sure receive many visitors. Would you like to
suggest modification or even replacement of the textual desciption on the above
AmmoGuide page? I would even invite you to write an article about the 5.7
for the AmmoGuide "Articles" section. I am certain many would read
it.

Thanks for the reply and looking forward to your suggestions,

Mike Haas

http://ammoguide.com/ developer
----- Original Message -----
From: Stephen P. Gibbons
To: Mike Haas
Sent: Thursday, October 14, 2004 11:02 AM
Subject: Re: Pardon me?

Hi, Mike,

Thanks for the note, I've been meaning to contact you also.

I really do appreciate what you've done with Ammoguide, and no flame was intended. If anything, I suspect that the source that you used for the 5.7x28mm info was potentially flawed (from a reloader's point of view.) It looks like you might have used the data from Cartriges of the World 10th edition, which has specs on the
first generation SS90 ammo (not the current generation SS190, L191, SS192, SB193, T194, etc.) You didn't list the source of your information in the Ammoguide entry, so my suspicicions may be wrong.

For example, when I used a micrometer on current factory cartriges that I've fed representatives through my own pistol, the bullets mic out to .224" I've had a devil of a time finding official specs on what FN/Olin/Winchester are currently
producing.
Again, I didn't intend to flame Ammoguide, I just haven't been able to resolve some of the discrepancies that I've observed, and I was trying to be cautious about providing reloading information on the Internet when I had questions myself. I'll add a note of explanation to the blog entry, and clean up my language. :-) Anything you can do on your end would be greatly appreciated too.

Best regards, and keep up the good work,

--
Steve

Mike Haas wrote:
At http://stevesfn57.blogspot.com/2004/07/57mm-x-28mm-ammunition-reloading.html you
note...

"Ammoguide provides some case dimensions, but their information
seemssomewhat out of date and possibly innacurate."

I appreciate the link, but can you explain the flame?

Mike Haas
http://ammoguide.com/ developer

Yahoo's handloading group is useful.

The SubGuns reloading forum is fairly active.

RCBS produces special order dies, including dies and shell holders for the 5.7x28.

• Dies - Part # 56820 $119.95
• Shell holder - Part # 57170 $16.95
• Order special dies and shell holders by part number and description ("5.7x28")
• Allow 6-8 weeks for delivery, and expect to pay shipping. ($163.95 total for dies and 2 shell holders shipped to AZ)
• RCBS Customer Service
  605 Oro Dam Blvd.
  Oroville, CA 95965
  For more information, call 1-800-533-5000 between 6:30 AM and 4:00 PM, Pacific time, Monday through Friday. They take Visa and Mastercard.

Huntington also provides special reloading dies, including dies and shell holders for the 5.7x28. They use the same part numberss as RCBS, but may have more stock on hand.

CH4D can also create reloading dies and shell holders.

Load data is non-existant (July 21, 2004)
Dead ends include: Hogdon, CCI-Speer,

Alternate producers are also non-existant (July 21, 2004)
Dead ends include: RBCD Performance Plus Ammunition, COR-Bon/Glaser,

Wildcats do exist, including some work on the 4.4x28. (found on The Firing Line.)

Ernie Wrenn ernie@mail.socommfg.com at Socom has "plenty" (~50,000) once-fired brass available for "$55 per thousand + fgt."

I had some email correspondence with a hand-loader who said:

S: (I have been reloading for over 30 years). The best place to start
is to find something with the same case volume & bore size.
Powder: My take on the powder used is a moderate speed ball type.
(Theyneed magnum primers)
I was going to try 2400. Ive used it from shotgun-rifle-pistol to good
result.
Primer, standard small rifle.
Bullet: My biggest problem. 40 grain
hornaday have too long nose taper.
Still looking. I am looking 4 berger 30 grain.
.224 dia. Crumples cases when seating. Need a .223 dia. Projo.
My first load tried will be a 30gr Berger bullet, small rifle primer,
10grs of 2400 powder.
Remove magazine before shooting when testing so it would hopefully
Redirect any "EXTRA" gasses.
Keep in touch, Dean

FN Corporate lineage and family tree

The Five-seveN is produced by FN Herstal, SA in Belgium; and marketed in the US by FNH USA. FN Manufacturing USA produces other products. All three subsidiaries (in addition to Browning North America, Browning International, US Repeating Arms, and Winchester Guns) are part of the Herstal Group.

Winchester (part of Olin Corporation) produces ammunition.

FNH USA, Inc. COMPANY PROFILE

FNH USA. Inc. is responsible for marketing only the highest quality firearms to those we entrust to keep the peace produced by one of the world's most recognized manufacturers. Established in July, 1998. FNH USA, Inc. is a full subsidiary of Herstal S.A. (law enforcement and military products (www.fnhusa.com), as well as Browning Inc. (sporting and hunting products) (www.browning.com). Since then we've coordinated all business development activities with U.S. Government agencies, and have also headed up business opportunities within the United States. And in 2001, FNH, Inc. was designated the primary FN Herstal office for law enforcement and military commercial activities in the United States.

FNH USA's Military and Law Enforcement products are manufactured in the U.S. by FN Manufacturing Inc. Columbia, SC, and U.S. Repeating Arms Corp. New Haven, CT, plus select products made in Belgium by FN Herstal S.A. This workbook presents FN's product offering for Law Enforcement, Military and Commercial Markets.

http://www.fnmfg.com/
FN Manufacturing, Inc., located in Columbia, SC, is a precision machining manufacturer specializing in the production of small arms. Our products include M16 and M240 machine guns, M249 SAW, and the FNP Polymer 49 pistol for military and law enforcement markets. FNMI provides weapon training as well as subcontract services for computer numerically controlled (CNC) and conventional machining, heat treating, and surface finishing.

Bibliography - Pistol Info

Small Arms: Pistols and Rifles (Greenhill Military Manual) by Authors: Ian V. Hogg Released: 01 April, 2001 ISBN: 1853674478 Hardcover

THE BROWNING HI-POWER AUTOMATIC PISTOL$59.95*
The story begins with the turn of the century pistol production contracts between John Browning and FN of Belgium and twists its way through firearms history to the production, in 1935, of the pistol we know today as the "Hi-Power" Plus, new sections covering the ultra-rare Argentinean full-auto HiPower machine pistol. The Israeli Kareen, the latest FN "MK3". HiPower and the new FN double action "BDA9". Plus the first words and photos on the revolutionary FN P90. 9 1/2" x 11", 262 pages. 306 illustrations, & hardcover.

Bibliography - Cartridge Info

Irving, G. F. 1988. FN’s New 5,7x28 Gun and Ammunition. The European Cartridge Collector. 283-22 (Dec): 14.
Irving, G. F. 1989. FN Experimental 5,7x28mm P90. The European Cartridge Collector. 288-1 (May): 1-2.

Barnes, Frank C. Edited by Stan Skinner. Cartridges of the World 10th Edition, Revised and Expanded.
Published by Krause Publications (September 2003) ISBN 0873496051


Josef MOETZ
AUSTRIAN MILITARY CARTRIDGES - Volume 2
21x30 cm, 456 pages, hardbound, German / partly English, over 500 pictures, including ca. 130 colorphotos, ISBN 3-901208-27-5. Laxenburg 2001,

Josef MOETZ
Austrian Military Cartridges - Vol. 1 & 2 on CD-ROM

Wardrip, Jim 2004. Modern Small Arms Ammunition Intermediate Cartridges Version 1.0 (pg 3)

Abstract: Secure Weapon System (SWS) Smart Gun Technology, Phase I: Summary of Findings Report

http://www.ncjrs.org/rr/vol3_1/9.html

Abstract

NCJ Number: 189247
Title: Secure Weapon System (SWS) Smart Gun Technology, Phase I: Summary of Findings Report
Author: J. Rankin

Corporate Author: FN Manufacturing, Inc
797 Clemson Road
Columbia, SC 29229

Sponsor: National Institute of Justice US Dept of Justice
810 Seventh Street NW
Washington, DC 20531

Sale: National Institute of Justice/NCJRS
Box 6000
Rockville, MD 20849

Paper Reproduction Sales National Institute of Justice/NCJRS
Box 6000 Department F
Rockville, MD 20849

Date Published: 05/2001
Page Count: 9
Country of Origin: United States
Language: English
Grant Number: 2000-MU-MU-K005

Annotation: This report summarizes the first phase of a project to continue research and development that began in 1995 and focuses on smart-gun technology to reduce the criminal use of firearms and unintended accidental shootings.

Abstract: The project began with a demonstration unit built to the FN Five-seveN pistol and used it as a starting point on which to base the project development. The project developed a functional requirement specification and used feasibility analysis and Failure Modes and Effects Analysis to develop the demonstration unit into an engineering model that more closely met the needs of the law enforcement community. Interviews with police personnel led to the conclusions that a Secure Weapon System must not be usable against a police officer, look like existing guns, be able to be fired if batteries are dead, and be able to fired amid an electrical malfunction. Other requirements included the ability to be operated by the officer’s partner but not by other people, reliability and durability similar to that of current guns, and usability if the officer wears heavy clothing or gloves. The development of the engineering model focused on reliability, durability, and resistance to environmental effects. This first phase of the project has been highly fruitful and has resulted in an engineering model that addresses police concerns while moving away from potential causes of system failure. The developers are eager to move to the second through fourth phases of the project. Photograph

Thesaurus Term: Police weapons ; Police safety ; Specifications ; Assaults on police ; Equipment evaluation ; Handguns ; Police weapons use

The NIJ Research Review

Five-seveN (Accessories - Lasers/Lights)

Insight Technology's M6 Tactical Laser Illuminator (TLI) works well on the IOM and USG models of the Five-seveN, in my experience. Presumably the M3, M3X, and M6X would be similarly compatible/useful.

Laser Devices, Inc. has also produced a Las/Tac with contours specific to the Five-seveN (Like so many things, this seems to be made of unobtanium, though.) Axel Raven claims to have a line on a source of these.

At least one model of LDI's BLAST 2 is also compatible with the FsN.

Axel Raven Company, Inc.
http://www.axelraven.com/
1034 West Indiana Avenue
Spokane, WA 99205
(509) 370-1553 Phone
(509) 324-6352 FAX
FFL/SOT Class III Firearms dealer. Axel Raven, President.

Five-seveN (and Exploding Targets, eg. Tannerite)

Tannerite (TM) exploding targets are cool stuff.

I asked:

I'm thinking that it's probably under-powered, but I'm curious as to your estimation of a Five-seveN with SS192 ammo (28gr JHP at 2034 fps http://www.fnhusa.com/contents/tw_57x28system.htm ) to detonate a Tannerite target. If not the factory ammo, how about an ultra-light hand-load in the 2500fps range?

Dan Tanner responded:

A lot depends on the weather, on the mix, on how well it's mixed, whether it's fuel-rich, or fuel-lean, etc. Normally, your safe with anything that shoots a pointed lead tipped bullet w/700 ft pounds of energy or more. Scientifically speaking, the targets are not suppose to work at all.... but they do.

Please keep me up on your expirements.

July, 2004

I've also picked up some Scarecrows and I plan to test them as well.