Some excerpts:
#1
I hope that my experience will give anyone pause before jumping into this.
I now have Five-seveN number 2. While at the gun shop, the dealer mentioned hearing a rumor that FN was going to begin manufacturing heavier grain bullets for the pistol. That should prove interesting. Mine showed no signs of stress until the 40 grain slug was fired. I don't think I'll be the first to try out any heavier bullets.
I spoke to Browning this morning (apparently they supply parts for FN in the US). They have SOME parts listed for the Five-seveN, but not all, and they could not disclose which parts, or what the prices are (??). I am considering sending the gun to them for a repair estimate. Haven't decided yet, but I hate to just write the first one off.
I have not given up on the concept of reloading this round, but I don't think I'll be pioneering anymore on a polymer gun.
#2
I was using Alliant 2400, 4.5 grains of powder. I expected this to be a very low charge. It did seem to be; the muzzle velocity was in the 400's of fps.
I expected the end charge to be on the low end between 6 & 7 grains.
#3
Perhaps I was not clear enough in my earlier posting. My first Five-seveN didn't blow up, it broke.
Before I fired a shot, I miked the overall length of an SS192 round, so my rounds would be seated at the proper depth. The slugs I used were shorter than the SS192 slugs (I extracted one), so I know that it didn't extend too far into the case. The FN slug is surprisingly long (.810!) to only be 28 grains. I have 231, Red Dot, Bullseye, Unique, and a bunch of IMR powders, but I have used 2400 the most by far, and selected it in an attempt to have the case be nearly full on a normal load (for consistency of performance).
As nearly as I can tell, the sequence went something like this:
Shot number one:
There is a piece of metal that blocks the slide, which is rolled forward by the grey plastic take-down button.
Upon firing the slide moved backwards (likely too hard), striking that piece of metal. This impact on the metal broke the plastic mechanism which is a moulded part of that take-down button.
The shot "felt" fine. Not too light or too hard. On this shot, my chrony reported an error and didn't give a good reading.
Shot number two:
Slide retracts after firing. At this point, the metal block is not held in the correct position by the plastic. The slide strikes this block, and the block rolls backwards (as if the take-down was slid rearward). This applies leverage to the slide while moving backward. The front of the slide lifts, partially dislocating the 'T'-rail on the front of the grip frame. The slide comes to a stop with the metal block firmly jammed under it.
After some amount of work, I have managed to get the gun apart, assess the damage, and (mostly) reassemble it. The only part that is obviously permanently damaged is the grey plastic take-down operator.
I am planning to send it to Browning (who does repairs for FN pistols) and get an estimate for repair and test firing.
I have pistol #2 now, but getting #1 repaired would be nice.
On a different note: I hear that SS192 is now "outlawed" as being considered an "armor piercing" round, and that there is a new SS196 coming out in a heavier grain bullet. Any truth to this? It sounds ridiculous enough to be initiated by the media, and unfortunately, be true. I can't recall ever seeing an armor piercing hollow point ...
Friday, February 18, 2005
Informative thread on reloading experiences w/ 5.7x28
Some excerpts:
#1
I hope that my experience will give anyone pause before jumping into this.
I now have Five-seveN number 2. While at the gun shop, the dealer mentioned hearing a rumor that FN was going to begin manufacturing heavier grain bullets for the pistol. That should prove interesting. Mine showed no signs of stress until the 40 grain slug was fired. I don't think I'll be the first to try out any heavier bullets.
I spoke to Browning this morning (apparently they supply parts for FN in the US). They have SOME parts listed for the Five-seveN, but not all, and they could not disclose which parts, or what the prices are (??). I am considering sending the gun to them for a repair estimate. Haven't decided yet, but I hate to just write the first one off.
I have not given up on the concept of reloading this round, but I don't think I'll be pioneering anymore on a polymer gun.
#2
I was using Alliant 2400, 4.5 grains of powder. I expected this to be a very low charge. It did seem to be; the muzzle velocity was in the 400's of fps.
I expected the end charge to be on the low end between 6 & 7 grains.
#3
Perhaps I was not clear enough in my earlier posting. My first Five-seveN didn't blow up, it broke.
Before I fired a shot, I miked the overall length of an SS192 round, so my rounds would be seated at the proper depth. The slugs I used were shorter than the SS192 slugs (I extracted one), so I know that it didn't extend too far into the case. The FN slug is surprisingly long (.810!) to only be 28 grains. I have 231, Red Dot, Bullseye, Unique, and a bunch of IMR powders, but I have used 2400 the most by far, and selected it in an attempt to have the case be nearly full on a normal load (for consistency of performance).
As nearly as I can tell, the sequence went something like this:
Shot number one:
There is a piece of metal that blocks the slide, which is rolled forward by the grey plastic take-down button.
Upon firing the slide moved backwards (likely too hard), striking that piece of metal. This impact on the metal broke the plastic mechanism which is a moulded part of that take-down button.
The shot "felt" fine. Not too light or too hard. On this shot, my chrony reported an error and didn't give a good reading.
Shot number two:
Slide retracts after firing. At this point, the metal block is not held in the correct position by the plastic. The slide strikes this block, and the block rolls backwards (as if the take-down was slid rearward). This applies leverage to the slide while moving backward. The front of the slide lifts, partially dislocating the 'T'-rail on the front of the grip frame. The slide comes to a stop with the metal block firmly jammed under it.
After some amount of work, I have managed to get the gun apart, assess the damage, and (mostly) reassemble it. The only part that is obviously permanently damaged is the grey plastic take-down operator.
I am planning to send it to Browning (who does repairs for FN pistols) and get an estimate for repair and test firing.
I have pistol #2 now, but getting #1 repaired would be nice.
#1
I hope that my experience will give anyone pause before jumping into this.
I now have Five-seveN number 2. While at the gun shop, the dealer mentioned hearing a rumor that FN was going to begin manufacturing heavier grain bullets for the pistol. That should prove interesting. Mine showed no signs of stress until the 40 grain slug was fired. I don't think I'll be the first to try out any heavier bullets.
I spoke to Browning this morning (apparently they supply parts for FN in the US). They have SOME parts listed for the Five-seveN, but not all, and they could not disclose which parts, or what the prices are (??). I am considering sending the gun to them for a repair estimate. Haven't decided yet, but I hate to just write the first one off.
I have not given up on the concept of reloading this round, but I don't think I'll be pioneering anymore on a polymer gun.
#2
I was using Alliant 2400, 4.5 grains of powder. I expected this to be a very low charge. It did seem to be; the muzzle velocity was in the 400's of fps.
I expected the end charge to be on the low end between 6 & 7 grains.
#3
Perhaps I was not clear enough in my earlier posting. My first Five-seveN didn't blow up, it broke.
Before I fired a shot, I miked the overall length of an SS192 round, so my rounds would be seated at the proper depth. The slugs I used were shorter than the SS192 slugs (I extracted one), so I know that it didn't extend too far into the case. The FN slug is surprisingly long (.810!) to only be 28 grains. I have 231, Red Dot, Bullseye, Unique, and a bunch of IMR powders, but I have used 2400 the most by far, and selected it in an attempt to have the case be nearly full on a normal load (for consistency of performance).
As nearly as I can tell, the sequence went something like this:
Shot number one:
There is a piece of metal that blocks the slide, which is rolled forward by the grey plastic take-down button.
Upon firing the slide moved backwards (likely too hard), striking that piece of metal. This impact on the metal broke the plastic mechanism which is a moulded part of that take-down button.
The shot "felt" fine. Not too light or too hard. On this shot, my chrony reported an error and didn't give a good reading.
Shot number two:
Slide retracts after firing. At this point, the metal block is not held in the correct position by the plastic. The slide strikes this block, and the block rolls backwards (as if the take-down was slid rearward). This applies leverage to the slide while moving backward. The front of the slide lifts, partially dislocating the 'T'-rail on the front of the grip frame. The slide comes to a stop with the metal block firmly jammed under it.
After some amount of work, I have managed to get the gun apart, assess the damage, and (mostly) reassemble it. The only part that is obviously permanently damaged is the grey plastic take-down operator.
I am planning to send it to Browning (who does repairs for FN pistols) and get an estimate for repair and test firing.
I have pistol #2 now, but getting #1 repaired would be nice.
Scottsdale Gun Club is taking pre-orders for Civie P90
Civilian P90 (Ps90) and f2000's (FS2000)
now taking pre-orders!
PS90: $1399.95
FS2000: $1749.95
now taking pre-orders!
PS90: $1399.95
FS2000: $1749.95
Ammolabs' FN 5.7x28mm FAQ
FN 5.7x28mm FAQ
The FN 5.7x28mm cartridge and the FN 5.7 USG and IOM handguns have recently become the new "evil" weapon to become the focus of extremist anti-2nd amendment groups in the US.
One group the Brady Campaign has also been circulating and posting erroneous information to further their own objectives under the promotion of Law Enforcement Officer Safety.
Since the AmmoLab Staff are comprised of former and current Law Enforcement personnel and we have tested the 5.7x28mm cartridge in the FN P90 and the Five SeveN IOM and USG pistols we decided to examine the email notices and the information as posted by the Brady Campaign.
Members are advised that 5.7 and 9mm Barrier Penetration Tests are now online in the members only sections.
Here is the Q&A as posted and distributed directly from the Brady Campaign with the exception that we have also responded with correct information so that all LEOs reading this information have access to correct and accurate information and can form their own opinions. This information is taken directly from their website posted under the title of "LE Relations".
Would the FN Five SeveN handgun have helped here:
Citizen Hero Dies While Saving Lives
The correct answers are posted as AL-A (AmmoLab Answers) in Red.
Frequently Asked Questions
about the FN Herstal Five-Seven Pistol
Q: What is the Five-SeveN?
A: The Five-seveN is a 5.7 x 28 mm pistol manufactured by FN Herstal of Belgium. It is a small, lightweight (1.5 lbs fully loaded), easily-concealable handgun which is marketed for its ability to penetrate body armor.
AL-A: The FN Five SeveN is a 22 caliber foreign made handgun subject to strict importation regulations which require it to have the features of a target or competition class handgun, these same features make it much more difficult to conceal and much less comfortable to carry concealed. The FN Five SeveN is chambered to fire the 5.7x28mm SS192 cartridge which closely replicates the wound profile and wounding capability of the .22 Magnum cartridge when used in a long barreled target handgun. It was imported from 2001 to 2004 as a voluntarily restricted product sold and delivered only to Law Enforcement Agencies when purchased on LE letterhead/PO as the IOM, Individual Officer Model. The IOM was distributed with three 20rd magazines and was until the expiration of the Assault Weapons Ban a prohibited product for civilian sales. As of the expiration of the ban FN advised their stocking distributors that the remaining stock of IOM and the newly introduced 5.7 USG pistol may be sold to all persons not legally prohibited from owning a firearm subject to State and Federal firearms regulations.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Q: What is it that makes this weapon so dangerous? The gun itself, the ammunition, or a combination of the two?
A: The combination. This gun is designed to shoot only 5.7 x 28 mm bullets. Several varieties of these bullets have been proven in tests to pierce body armor - such as typical police vests - when fired from this handgun. The design of the gun allows it to accept this ammunition and fire it at around 2100 feet per second. The manufacturer advertises that with one variety of 5.7 x 28 mm bullets, the Five-seveN "will perforate 48 layers of Kevlar up to 200 meters." The gun is sold with high-capacity 20 round magazines, adding to its lethality.
AL-A: All firearms are dangerous and the FN 5.7x28mm is one of the modern varmint class cartridge designs. It provides .22 Magnum level wounding and lethality in a large frame service size handgun that is difficult to conceal and is sized very closely to the Glock G21 service pistol which is widely used as a uniform duty pistol by Police personnel nationwide. The answer above is completely misleading and is grossly exaggerated in context. The SS190 ammunition which is explained above is produced by FN under very strict controls & has been since day one classified as Armor Piercing and cannot be imported, distributed, or sold to any persons other than Law Enforcement Agencies and possession of SS190 & SS193 ammunition by unlicensed personnel is a violation of Federal Law. Armor Piercing ammunition is very tightly restricted by the BATFE. While troubling the ability to penetrate soft aramid fabric/fiber panels which are often irresponsibly referred to as "Body Armor" does not make a product armor piercing and without providing information to the criminal element there are currently just under 3,000 sporting, hunting, and Law Enforcement issue duty ammunition products available in common handgun calibers which will penetrate the level IIa vest panels shown in the Brady video. The now removed SS192 jacketed lead bullets are in fact 50% less effective than the common .357 Sig duty pistol as "body armor" penetrating products and provide 38% of the wound volume of the standard .357 Sig 125gr Speer Gold Dot jhp duty loading.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Q: Other types of guns penetrate body armor - why is this one any more dangerous to police?
A: What makes this gun so dangerous is the fact that it is a lightweight, easily concealable handgun designed and marketed to shoot armor piercing bullets. Some other types of ammunition, when fired from rifles, may penetrate body armor. That's why police alerts on the gun have urged officers who encounter an adversary armed with the Five-Seven to react as if the assailant is armed with a rifle.
AL-A: The Five SeveN USG is a large framed service/duty pistol suitable for uniform Police personnel for patrol use. It is difficult to conceal and the pistol was never designed nor was it marketed to shoot armor piercing ammunition and it does not in fact provide rifle level performance from a handgun sized package. The very small 28 & 31 grain (SS192) projectiles offered provide soft tissue wounding that very closely approximates the performance of the .22 Magnum soft point target and small game varmint load. It is well suited for use where lawful for the taking of rabbits, squirrels, and ground hogs. The wounding capability in comparison of the SS192 when fired from the Five SeveN USG to the standard 124gr 9mm Speer jhp+p loading as issued to the NYPD and fired from the Glock G19 duty pistol is roughly 40% with a large reduction in overall wound size, depth, diameter, and soft tissue volume. The SS192 ammunition provides for much faster energy loss and provides a significantly lower risk of target over penetration and secondary target contact/over penetration while also providing for a significant reduction in risk of ricochet thus making it statistically a safer pistol in many aspects for the civilian end user.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Q: What types of bullets were used when the gun was test fired by the Brady Center? Are those bullets legal?
A: The Brady Center recently purchased the Five-seveN from a Virginia retail gun dealer, along with 5.7 x 28 mm SS192 rounds of ammunition. The Brady Center test fired the weapon with these rounds and found it easily penetrated typical threat level IIA, Kevlar police body armor. This ammunition is legal to be sold to civilians.
AL-A: Unless the Brady Center is a licensed LE Agency or Federally Licensed Firearms Dealer; an individual employee or volunteer of the Brady Center purchased the firearm and then provided it to the Brady Center and quite possibly committed a criminal action by purchasing the firearm for another person or party as listed on the BATFE Form 4473.
Legal issues not withstanding, the SS192 will like the common kitchen knife or the compound bow and over 10,000+ commercially made and commonly available products for sporting, hunting, Police use, target shooting, and collecting penetrate a level IIa soft aramid fabric/fiber panel.
This is the primary reason that the US Department of Defense no longer issues or uses fragmentation vests which when tested provide comparative performance to the US NIJ Level IIa standard for "soft body armor". Penetration of these panels is relatively meaningless as Law Enforcement Agencies have long been made aware that Level IIa while being thin and comfortable is not the product that Level II or Level IIIa :soft body armor" is and the SS192 will not penetrate properly constructed Level II & IIIa panels. Although some panels that do not truly meet the NIJ Level II standard using a substandard construction and manufacturing process can be penetrated.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Q: Did the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives say that this gun won't pierce armor?
A: No - the ATF said the ammunition did not constitute armor piercing ammunition under existing Federal law. The Brady Center agrees - and that's why it believes Congressional action is called for. The current law on armor piercing ammunition is very weak. It states that ammunition made of certain materials is illegal and it doesn't mandate testing of specific ammunition fired out of specific firearms.
AL-A: The BATFE like the citizens it serves is bound by the same laws and does not legislate products or determine legal issues, it proudly and honorably serves to enforce the existing laws as relating to it's areas of responsibilities and investigates criminal infractions of those laws. The BATFE has never been weak on enforcement of the law and has a long history of aggressive action to protect the public and the law enforcement community. As stated previously soft fabric panels are not armor and armor piercing products as defined relate to the ability to penetrate standard armor products which are not made of aramid fabrics or fibers. Any instrument or tool can potentially be used as a weapon and if the intent is to widen the definition of the an illegal armor pricing product as one which can penetrate soft aramid fabric or fiber panels than potentially the law will become unenforceable as the average Home Depot store contains tens of thousands of products which can penetrate hundreds of layers of aramid fabrics of fibers.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Q: I've heard that FN Herstal claims that ammunition it sells to civilians for this gun does not penetrate body armor. FN Herstal clams that they no longer sell 5.7 x 28 mm SS192 cartridges to the public. However, staff from the Brady Center just obtained 5.7 x 28 mm SS192 cartridges at retail in mid-January. FN Herstal has taken no steps to recall these cartridges from the civilian market.
FN Herstal also claims that 5.7 x 28 mm SS192 cartridges do not penetrate level IIIA body armor. The tests that the Brady Center completed show that 5.7 x 28 mm SS192 cartridges penetrate level IIA body armor, which is soft body armor that most law enforcement officers use.
AL-A: This is once again a gross exaggeration and is entirely misleading. The SS192 product does not provide armor piercing performance and is no longer imported for sale to the non-Law Enforcement market in any form. As with the 1994 Assault Weapons Ban ownership of a now removed or prohibited product which was purchased prior to the removal of the product is not a criminal action and as history has demonstrated the Brady Campaign are the single largest sellers and promoters of firearms products. The three largest distributors for FN here in the US reported less than 4% sales of the 5.7 product until the Brady Campaign began promoting it. Sales have now exceeded 100% of capacity due to the Brady Campaign email, the Brady Campaign website, and the national press the issue has garnered.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Q: When did the Five-SeveN first become available to civilians in the US?
A: FN Herstal debuted the gun and ammunition for sale to civilians in 2004.
AL-A: Under Federal Law the Five SeveN USG and IOM became legal for civilian sales and possession upon the expiration of the Assault Weapons Ban in September 2004.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Q: Is the gun legal? Under federal law, this gun, and its ammunition, is legal.
AL-A: The Five SeveN is a serial numbered and regulated firearm, it can legally be sold or transferred to any person who passes the criminal background check, provides valid state issued photo ID, and is not prohibited by State, Federal, or Local laws from taking possession of the firearm. At current the only legal ammunition for civilian purchase was the existing stock of SS192 non-armor piercing ammunition. FN has announced plans to offer a 40gr Vmax jhp varmint bullet loading for the firearm which cannot penetrate any Level IIA, Level II, or Level IIIa soft aramid fabric or fiber panels which conform to NIJ standards.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Q: Does the availability of this gun have anything to do with the expiration of the AWB?
A: No. The Five-seveN was available to civilians before the AWB expired. High capacity magazines are now available for use with this gun, which were banned under the AWB.
AL-A: The FN Five SeveN was previously sold only through the Individual Officer Model program where the distributor was required to obtain proof of Law Enforcement status prior to delivery of the firearm to the officer and was distributed with magazines with greater than 10rd capacity as a direct ship to the LE Agency. It could be purchased in accordance with Federal Law. The IOM was available with 10rd capacity magazines for individual officer purchase for LE Officers who were residents in states where the state legally prohibits magazine capacities greater than 10rds.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Q: Are there states where this gun and ammunition are already illegal?
A: This gun and its ammunition are not legal to be sold in California under Title 2.6 of the Penal Code, Section 12320, which forbids handgun ammunition designed primarily to penetrate metal or armor.
AL-A: You will need to contact each states Attorney Generals office for specific legal issues with regards to the Five SeveN pistol.
Copyright 2005: The terms AmmoLab®, Ammo Lab®, Ammolab®, and AmmoLab.com® are the registered trademarks of the AmmoLab Corporation. The name AmmoLab® is also a registered trade name of the AmmoLab Corporation. All images (except as noted) and content on this website are the property of the AmmoLab Corporation 2005, all rights reserved and no part of this website or its content may be reproduced without the express written permission of the AmmoLab Corporation.
[Yes, I have Ammolabs express written permission to post this copy - please follow the link in the title to their site for the original article.]
The FN 5.7x28mm cartridge and the FN 5.7 USG and IOM handguns have recently become the new "evil" weapon to become the focus of extremist anti-2nd amendment groups in the US.
One group the Brady Campaign has also been circulating and posting erroneous information to further their own objectives under the promotion of Law Enforcement Officer Safety.
Since the AmmoLab Staff are comprised of former and current Law Enforcement personnel and we have tested the 5.7x28mm cartridge in the FN P90 and the Five SeveN IOM and USG pistols we decided to examine the email notices and the information as posted by the Brady Campaign.
Members are advised that 5.7 and 9mm Barrier Penetration Tests are now online in the members only sections.
Here is the Q&A as posted and distributed directly from the Brady Campaign with the exception that we have also responded with correct information so that all LEOs reading this information have access to correct and accurate information and can form their own opinions. This information is taken directly from their website posted under the title of "LE Relations".
Would the FN Five SeveN handgun have helped here:
Citizen Hero Dies While Saving Lives
The correct answers are posted as AL-A (AmmoLab Answers) in Red.
Frequently Asked Questions
about the FN Herstal Five-Seven Pistol
Q: What is the Five-SeveN?
A: The Five-seveN is a 5.7 x 28 mm pistol manufactured by FN Herstal of Belgium. It is a small, lightweight (1.5 lbs fully loaded), easily-concealable handgun which is marketed for its ability to penetrate body armor.
AL-A: The FN Five SeveN is a 22 caliber foreign made handgun subject to strict importation regulations which require it to have the features of a target or competition class handgun, these same features make it much more difficult to conceal and much less comfortable to carry concealed. The FN Five SeveN is chambered to fire the 5.7x28mm SS192 cartridge which closely replicates the wound profile and wounding capability of the .22 Magnum cartridge when used in a long barreled target handgun. It was imported from 2001 to 2004 as a voluntarily restricted product sold and delivered only to Law Enforcement Agencies when purchased on LE letterhead/PO as the IOM, Individual Officer Model. The IOM was distributed with three 20rd magazines and was until the expiration of the Assault Weapons Ban a prohibited product for civilian sales. As of the expiration of the ban FN advised their stocking distributors that the remaining stock of IOM and the newly introduced 5.7 USG pistol may be sold to all persons not legally prohibited from owning a firearm subject to State and Federal firearms regulations.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Q: What is it that makes this weapon so dangerous? The gun itself, the ammunition, or a combination of the two?
A: The combination. This gun is designed to shoot only 5.7 x 28 mm bullets. Several varieties of these bullets have been proven in tests to pierce body armor - such as typical police vests - when fired from this handgun. The design of the gun allows it to accept this ammunition and fire it at around 2100 feet per second. The manufacturer advertises that with one variety of 5.7 x 28 mm bullets, the Five-seveN "will perforate 48 layers of Kevlar up to 200 meters." The gun is sold with high-capacity 20 round magazines, adding to its lethality.
AL-A: All firearms are dangerous and the FN 5.7x28mm is one of the modern varmint class cartridge designs. It provides .22 Magnum level wounding and lethality in a large frame service size handgun that is difficult to conceal and is sized very closely to the Glock G21 service pistol which is widely used as a uniform duty pistol by Police personnel nationwide. The answer above is completely misleading and is grossly exaggerated in context. The SS190 ammunition which is explained above is produced by FN under very strict controls & has been since day one classified as Armor Piercing and cannot be imported, distributed, or sold to any persons other than Law Enforcement Agencies and possession of SS190 & SS193 ammunition by unlicensed personnel is a violation of Federal Law. Armor Piercing ammunition is very tightly restricted by the BATFE. While troubling the ability to penetrate soft aramid fabric/fiber panels which are often irresponsibly referred to as "Body Armor" does not make a product armor piercing and without providing information to the criminal element there are currently just under 3,000 sporting, hunting, and Law Enforcement issue duty ammunition products available in common handgun calibers which will penetrate the level IIa vest panels shown in the Brady video. The now removed SS192 jacketed lead bullets are in fact 50% less effective than the common .357 Sig duty pistol as "body armor" penetrating products and provide 38% of the wound volume of the standard .357 Sig 125gr Speer Gold Dot jhp duty loading.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Q: Other types of guns penetrate body armor - why is this one any more dangerous to police?
A: What makes this gun so dangerous is the fact that it is a lightweight, easily concealable handgun designed and marketed to shoot armor piercing bullets. Some other types of ammunition, when fired from rifles, may penetrate body armor. That's why police alerts on the gun have urged officers who encounter an adversary armed with the Five-Seven to react as if the assailant is armed with a rifle.
AL-A: The Five SeveN USG is a large framed service/duty pistol suitable for uniform Police personnel for patrol use. It is difficult to conceal and the pistol was never designed nor was it marketed to shoot armor piercing ammunition and it does not in fact provide rifle level performance from a handgun sized package. The very small 28 & 31 grain (SS192) projectiles offered provide soft tissue wounding that very closely approximates the performance of the .22 Magnum soft point target and small game varmint load. It is well suited for use where lawful for the taking of rabbits, squirrels, and ground hogs. The wounding capability in comparison of the SS192 when fired from the Five SeveN USG to the standard 124gr 9mm Speer jhp+p loading as issued to the NYPD and fired from the Glock G19 duty pistol is roughly 40% with a large reduction in overall wound size, depth, diameter, and soft tissue volume. The SS192 ammunition provides for much faster energy loss and provides a significantly lower risk of target over penetration and secondary target contact/over penetration while also providing for a significant reduction in risk of ricochet thus making it statistically a safer pistol in many aspects for the civilian end user.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Q: What types of bullets were used when the gun was test fired by the Brady Center? Are those bullets legal?
A: The Brady Center recently purchased the Five-seveN from a Virginia retail gun dealer, along with 5.7 x 28 mm SS192 rounds of ammunition. The Brady Center test fired the weapon with these rounds and found it easily penetrated typical threat level IIA, Kevlar police body armor. This ammunition is legal to be sold to civilians.
AL-A: Unless the Brady Center is a licensed LE Agency or Federally Licensed Firearms Dealer; an individual employee or volunteer of the Brady Center purchased the firearm and then provided it to the Brady Center and quite possibly committed a criminal action by purchasing the firearm for another person or party as listed on the BATFE Form 4473.
Legal issues not withstanding, the SS192 will like the common kitchen knife or the compound bow and over 10,000+ commercially made and commonly available products for sporting, hunting, Police use, target shooting, and collecting penetrate a level IIa soft aramid fabric/fiber panel.
This is the primary reason that the US Department of Defense no longer issues or uses fragmentation vests which when tested provide comparative performance to the US NIJ Level IIa standard for "soft body armor". Penetration of these panels is relatively meaningless as Law Enforcement Agencies have long been made aware that Level IIa while being thin and comfortable is not the product that Level II or Level IIIa :soft body armor" is and the SS192 will not penetrate properly constructed Level II & IIIa panels. Although some panels that do not truly meet the NIJ Level II standard using a substandard construction and manufacturing process can be penetrated.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Q: Did the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives say that this gun won't pierce armor?
A: No - the ATF said the ammunition did not constitute armor piercing ammunition under existing Federal law. The Brady Center agrees - and that's why it believes Congressional action is called for. The current law on armor piercing ammunition is very weak. It states that ammunition made of certain materials is illegal and it doesn't mandate testing of specific ammunition fired out of specific firearms.
AL-A: The BATFE like the citizens it serves is bound by the same laws and does not legislate products or determine legal issues, it proudly and honorably serves to enforce the existing laws as relating to it's areas of responsibilities and investigates criminal infractions of those laws. The BATFE has never been weak on enforcement of the law and has a long history of aggressive action to protect the public and the law enforcement community. As stated previously soft fabric panels are not armor and armor piercing products as defined relate to the ability to penetrate standard armor products which are not made of aramid fabrics or fibers. Any instrument or tool can potentially be used as a weapon and if the intent is to widen the definition of the an illegal armor pricing product as one which can penetrate soft aramid fabric or fiber panels than potentially the law will become unenforceable as the average Home Depot store contains tens of thousands of products which can penetrate hundreds of layers of aramid fabrics of fibers.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Q: I've heard that FN Herstal claims that ammunition it sells to civilians for this gun does not penetrate body armor. FN Herstal clams that they no longer sell 5.7 x 28 mm SS192 cartridges to the public. However, staff from the Brady Center just obtained 5.7 x 28 mm SS192 cartridges at retail in mid-January. FN Herstal has taken no steps to recall these cartridges from the civilian market.
FN Herstal also claims that 5.7 x 28 mm SS192 cartridges do not penetrate level IIIA body armor. The tests that the Brady Center completed show that 5.7 x 28 mm SS192 cartridges penetrate level IIA body armor, which is soft body armor that most law enforcement officers use.
AL-A: This is once again a gross exaggeration and is entirely misleading. The SS192 product does not provide armor piercing performance and is no longer imported for sale to the non-Law Enforcement market in any form. As with the 1994 Assault Weapons Ban ownership of a now removed or prohibited product which was purchased prior to the removal of the product is not a criminal action and as history has demonstrated the Brady Campaign are the single largest sellers and promoters of firearms products. The three largest distributors for FN here in the US reported less than 4% sales of the 5.7 product until the Brady Campaign began promoting it. Sales have now exceeded 100% of capacity due to the Brady Campaign email, the Brady Campaign website, and the national press the issue has garnered.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Q: When did the Five-SeveN first become available to civilians in the US?
A: FN Herstal debuted the gun and ammunition for sale to civilians in 2004.
AL-A: Under Federal Law the Five SeveN USG and IOM became legal for civilian sales and possession upon the expiration of the Assault Weapons Ban in September 2004.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Q: Is the gun legal? Under federal law, this gun, and its ammunition, is legal.
AL-A: The Five SeveN is a serial numbered and regulated firearm, it can legally be sold or transferred to any person who passes the criminal background check, provides valid state issued photo ID, and is not prohibited by State, Federal, or Local laws from taking possession of the firearm. At current the only legal ammunition for civilian purchase was the existing stock of SS192 non-armor piercing ammunition. FN has announced plans to offer a 40gr Vmax jhp varmint bullet loading for the firearm which cannot penetrate any Level IIA, Level II, or Level IIIa soft aramid fabric or fiber panels which conform to NIJ standards.
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Q: Does the availability of this gun have anything to do with the expiration of the AWB?
A: No. The Five-seveN was available to civilians before the AWB expired. High capacity magazines are now available for use with this gun, which were banned under the AWB.
AL-A: The FN Five SeveN was previously sold only through the Individual Officer Model program where the distributor was required to obtain proof of Law Enforcement status prior to delivery of the firearm to the officer and was distributed with magazines with greater than 10rd capacity as a direct ship to the LE Agency. It could be purchased in accordance with Federal Law. The IOM was available with 10rd capacity magazines for individual officer purchase for LE Officers who were residents in states where the state legally prohibits magazine capacities greater than 10rds.
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Q: Are there states where this gun and ammunition are already illegal?
A: This gun and its ammunition are not legal to be sold in California under Title 2.6 of the Penal Code, Section 12320, which forbids handgun ammunition designed primarily to penetrate metal or armor.
AL-A: You will need to contact each states Attorney Generals office for specific legal issues with regards to the Five SeveN pistol.
Copyright 2005: The terms AmmoLab®, Ammo Lab®, Ammolab®, and AmmoLab.com® are the registered trademarks of the AmmoLab Corporation. The name AmmoLab® is also a registered trade name of the AmmoLab Corporation. All images (except as noted) and content on this website are the property of the AmmoLab Corporation 2005, all rights reserved and no part of this website or its content may be reproduced without the express written permission of the AmmoLab Corporation.
[Yes, I have Ammolabs express written permission to post this copy - please follow the link in the title to their site for the original article.]
Friday, February 11, 2005
SS196SR Available from Impact (Pic & Specs)
FN 5.7x28mm SS196SR V-MAX Ammunition, 50/Box
Price: $20.13
Manufacturer: FN
Manufacturer Item #: 10700014BX
Impact Item #: 10700014BX
Out of stock: 3-4 Weeks Accepting orders.
Introducing the latest ammunition developed for the 5.7x28mm system, the SS196SR. This new round utilizes a 40 grain Hornady V-MAX projectile. The outstanding design of the 40 grain V-MAX projectile offers precise accuracy and extreme expansion even at long range, low velocity situations.
Technical Data:
Type: Sporting Round
Cartridge Weight: 105 Grains
Projectile Weight: 40 Grains
Muzzle Velocity: 1,650 ft/second
Model: SS196SR
Price: $20.13
Manufacturer: FN
Manufacturer Item #: 10700014BX
Impact Item #: 10700014BX
Out of stock: 3-4 Weeks Accepting orders.
Introducing the latest ammunition developed for the 5.7x28mm system, the SS196SR. This new round utilizes a 40 grain Hornady V-MAX projectile. The outstanding design of the 40 grain V-MAX projectile offers precise accuracy and extreme expansion even at long range, low velocity situations.
Technical Data:
Type: Sporting Round
Cartridge Weight: 105 Grains
Projectile Weight: 40 Grains
Muzzle Velocity: 1,650 ft/second
Model: SS196SR
Wednesday, February 02, 2005
FN's New Pistol Sure Has the Bradys Wound Up (blog)
[Ed - See link above for the original article by/at FreedomSight. ]
Say Uncle got the jump on me WRT another press release from the Brady Gun-Ban Bunch in which they caterwaul yet again about the eeeeevvvviiiiillll RN Five-seveN pistol from Fabrique Nationale. Not much to add to what I wrote earlier, but one thing they said is worth noting.
The gun, the Five-SeveN handgun manufactured by FN Herstal of Belgium, is lightweight and easily concealable. It is marketed by the company on its Web site as intended "to defeat the enemy in all close combat situations in urban areas, jungle conditions, night missions and any self defense action. Enemy personnel, even wearing body armor can be effectively engaged up to 200 meters. Kevlar(r) helmets and vests as well as the CRISAT protection will be penetrated."
Yeah, so? Do they have any idea of the vast number of firearms out there which will go through a "bulletproof" vest? The term "bulletproof" is really a misnomer, as it depends on a lot of factors, including bullet construction and velocity. All anybody who wants to defeat typical body armor has to do is get a good centerfire hunting rifle.
I'm not saying that it's a good thing that it's relatively easy to defeat body armor, but rather that it's a completely invalid criterion to use as an argument for banning a particular firearm. It's a non-issue, because there's nothing particularly noteworthy about it, from a technical perspective.
Uncle also points to the ATF Page on the 5.7x28mm cartridge and the Five-seveN pistol. Note there are several types of cartridge available, only two of which are armor-piercing, and, I deduce from the ATF page, only one of which is available for sale in the U.S. to us ordinary civilians. That cartridge is the SS196.
FTB has also examined a 5.7 X 28 mm projectile that FN Herstal has designated the "SS196." The SS196 is loaded with a Hornady 40 grain, jacketed lead bullet. FTB classified SS196 ammunition as not armor piercing ammunition under Federal firearms statutes.
According to FNH USA, FN Herstal tested the SS192 ammunition. SS192 ammunition did not penetrate the Level IIIA vests that were tested. FNH USA states that SS196, Hornady V-Max 40 gr. bullets fired from a 4-3/4 inch barrel did not penetrate the Level II vests that were used in testing. [emphasis mine]
The statements from FN on the capabilities of the 5.7x28mm cartridge are specifically about the SS190 variant of the cartridge, which is, you guessed it, not available to the general public.
But of course, to the Brady Bunch and their ilk, the introduction of any new firearm or cartridge design must seem like an apocalyptic moment, fraught with fear. Why does anybody listen to them?
Say Uncle got the jump on me WRT another press release from the Brady Gun-Ban Bunch in which they caterwaul yet again about the eeeeevvvviiiiillll RN Five-seveN pistol from Fabrique Nationale. Not much to add to what I wrote earlier, but one thing they said is worth noting.
The gun, the Five-SeveN handgun manufactured by FN Herstal of Belgium, is lightweight and easily concealable. It is marketed by the company on its Web site as intended "to defeat the enemy in all close combat situations in urban areas, jungle conditions, night missions and any self defense action. Enemy personnel, even wearing body armor can be effectively engaged up to 200 meters. Kevlar(r) helmets and vests as well as the CRISAT protection will be penetrated."
Yeah, so? Do they have any idea of the vast number of firearms out there which will go through a "bulletproof" vest? The term "bulletproof" is really a misnomer, as it depends on a lot of factors, including bullet construction and velocity. All anybody who wants to defeat typical body armor has to do is get a good centerfire hunting rifle.
I'm not saying that it's a good thing that it's relatively easy to defeat body armor, but rather that it's a completely invalid criterion to use as an argument for banning a particular firearm. It's a non-issue, because there's nothing particularly noteworthy about it, from a technical perspective.
Uncle also points to the ATF Page on the 5.7x28mm cartridge and the Five-seveN pistol. Note there are several types of cartridge available, only two of which are armor-piercing, and, I deduce from the ATF page, only one of which is available for sale in the U.S. to us ordinary civilians. That cartridge is the SS196.
FTB has also examined a 5.7 X 28 mm projectile that FN Herstal has designated the "SS196." The SS196 is loaded with a Hornady 40 grain, jacketed lead bullet. FTB classified SS196 ammunition as not armor piercing ammunition under Federal firearms statutes.
According to FNH USA, FN Herstal tested the SS192 ammunition. SS192 ammunition did not penetrate the Level IIIA vests that were tested. FNH USA states that SS196, Hornady V-Max 40 gr. bullets fired from a 4-3/4 inch barrel did not penetrate the Level II vests that were used in testing. [emphasis mine]
The statements from FN on the capabilities of the 5.7x28mm cartridge are specifically about the SS190 variant of the cartridge, which is, you guessed it, not available to the general public.
But of course, to the Brady Bunch and their ilk, the introduction of any new firearm or cartridge design must seem like an apocalyptic moment, fraught with fear. Why does anybody listen to them?
Brady Trots Out Same Old Stuff for New Gun (blog)
See link above for the original article by/at FreedomSight.
Hey, check out the new Five-Seven semi-auto pistol from FN Herstal (who don't get a link due to their clueless website design). It fires the 5.7x28mm cartridge, which is a .224 caliber projectile. Whether the world needs another Poodleshooter grade cartridge ... well, variety is the spice of life, you know. FN makes various claims about the military applications of this round, including personal armor penetration, which results in predictable wailing and twisting of knickers from the Brady Gun Ban Bunch.
"This handgun is made for soldiers to kill enemy soldiers. The only civilians who would need one are criminals who want to kill cops," Brady said. "In other words, this is a no-brainer. It has no place in civil society. Get rid of it."
To which Robert Heinlein responds,
An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life.
And notice, again, the usage of the verb, need. Excuse me, but it isn't for you, Mr. Brady, to define the constraints of need for the rest of us. This is part of being a free people. We get to decide for ourselves what our needs are, and how to satisfy those needs. Not you. Not the government. Not the (far less than) Million Mom March, or Tom Diaz, or any other left-wing policy wonk who lacks an appreciation for the U.S. Constitution, or natural rights. I suggest the the "no-brainer" appelation applies to your line of reasoning, which obviously fails to consider the fundamental issues of the rights of a free people, and the lack of any evidence that gun-control laws have any effect on criminals or crime.
Brady urged the White House and Congressional leaders to act. "President Bush and Congress should urge the gun company to stop selling this gun in America voluntarily, or the President and Congress should take whatever action is necessary to get it out of the American civilian marketplace," Brady said. "Anything else makes no sense. Nobody in America who's not a soldier or a police officer needs to have this handgun."
Well, how about members of the unorganized militia. Yes, the very militia which is comprised of all able-bodied males of age 17 to 44. About which Alexander Hamilton wrote,
This will not only lessen the call for military establishments, but if circumstances should at any time oblige the government to form an army of any magnitude that army can never be formidable to the liberties of the people while there is a large body of citizens, little if at all inferior to them in discipline and the use of arms, who stand ready to defend their own rights and those of their fellow-citizens. — Federalist No. 29
See also 10USC311.
The thing which makes to sense are the continual knee-jerk reactions on the part of the anti-gun bigots, who continue to ignore the rights of free people to defend themselves, and to make their own choices regarding their personal safety, and the equipement required to ensure such. It also makes no sense to continue to pass ineffectual laws, abridging the rights of the people, when history shows such laws have little, if any benefit to society — not that that's a valid test in this case, but the gun-ban crowd continue to parrot it as an argument, and the rest of us are getting damn tired of hearing it.
"This gun is a very dangerous, easily concealable assault pistol," said John Shanks, Law Enforcement Relations director at the Brady Campaign. Shanks, a former police officer from Texas, expressed concern not only for the safety of law enforcement officers, but also innocent bystanders, who may fall victim to these rounds in their community.
Oh please. Assault Pistol. Where'd you come up with that term, Mr. Shanks? We might as well start prepending the term "assault" to anything that can possibly be used as a weapon. For example, I own several assault wood chisels. I also drive an assault automobile.
Labeling something as "very dangerous" is no argument. The world is full of dangerous things — by which I mean things which can cause harm when misused. It's the misuse that's a danger, not the thing by itself. Would you argue that this gun, when carried by a police officer, is "dangerous"? Not likely. What basis, then, to argue that it's somehow transmogrified into something to be feared in the hands of the civilian? And it's just as possible for bystanders to be hit by a car in a farmers market as it is for them to be hit by stray bullets. Neither provides a justification for removing the offending product from the market.
Update: Countertop Chronicles fisks the livin' daylights out of the NYPD and Newsday over their article on the FN Five-Seven. Best quote, in light of the wailing about civilians getting their hands on one of these pistols:
You see, FN has restricted sales of the Five-seveN to military and law enforcement agencies only!!!
What's that you say, Mr. Hutton's story and concerns are utter bogus bullshit? Yep, you heard right.
According to Modern Fireams, the Five-seveN is available from FN for government or law enforcement sales only a point confirmed by FN's own web page.
Suggested Price: (Law Enforcement agencies only- 5.7 x 28 caliber weapons are not available to the general public)
You know, that just chaps my ass. Of course, they're a European company, and over there, civilians are still considered as beings who are beneath the annointed overseers. Not over here, FN, thank you very much (NOT!). Oh wait, we have the same bullshit over here too.
Hey, check out the new Five-Seven semi-auto pistol from FN Herstal (who don't get a link due to their clueless website design). It fires the 5.7x28mm cartridge, which is a .224 caliber projectile. Whether the world needs another Poodleshooter grade cartridge ... well, variety is the spice of life, you know. FN makes various claims about the military applications of this round, including personal armor penetration, which results in predictable wailing and twisting of knickers from the Brady Gun Ban Bunch.
"This handgun is made for soldiers to kill enemy soldiers. The only civilians who would need one are criminals who want to kill cops," Brady said. "In other words, this is a no-brainer. It has no place in civil society. Get rid of it."
To which Robert Heinlein responds,
An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life.
And notice, again, the usage of the verb, need. Excuse me, but it isn't for you, Mr. Brady, to define the constraints of need for the rest of us. This is part of being a free people. We get to decide for ourselves what our needs are, and how to satisfy those needs. Not you. Not the government. Not the (far less than) Million Mom March, or Tom Diaz, or any other left-wing policy wonk who lacks an appreciation for the U.S. Constitution, or natural rights. I suggest the the "no-brainer" appelation applies to your line of reasoning, which obviously fails to consider the fundamental issues of the rights of a free people, and the lack of any evidence that gun-control laws have any effect on criminals or crime.
Brady urged the White House and Congressional leaders to act. "President Bush and Congress should urge the gun company to stop selling this gun in America voluntarily, or the President and Congress should take whatever action is necessary to get it out of the American civilian marketplace," Brady said. "Anything else makes no sense. Nobody in America who's not a soldier or a police officer needs to have this handgun."
Well, how about members of the unorganized militia. Yes, the very militia which is comprised of all able-bodied males of age 17 to 44. About which Alexander Hamilton wrote,
This will not only lessen the call for military establishments, but if circumstances should at any time oblige the government to form an army of any magnitude that army can never be formidable to the liberties of the people while there is a large body of citizens, little if at all inferior to them in discipline and the use of arms, who stand ready to defend their own rights and those of their fellow-citizens. — Federalist No. 29
See also 10USC311.
The thing which makes to sense are the continual knee-jerk reactions on the part of the anti-gun bigots, who continue to ignore the rights of free people to defend themselves, and to make their own choices regarding their personal safety, and the equipement required to ensure such. It also makes no sense to continue to pass ineffectual laws, abridging the rights of the people, when history shows such laws have little, if any benefit to society — not that that's a valid test in this case, but the gun-ban crowd continue to parrot it as an argument, and the rest of us are getting damn tired of hearing it.
"This gun is a very dangerous, easily concealable assault pistol," said John Shanks, Law Enforcement Relations director at the Brady Campaign. Shanks, a former police officer from Texas, expressed concern not only for the safety of law enforcement officers, but also innocent bystanders, who may fall victim to these rounds in their community.
Oh please. Assault Pistol. Where'd you come up with that term, Mr. Shanks? We might as well start prepending the term "assault" to anything that can possibly be used as a weapon. For example, I own several assault wood chisels. I also drive an assault automobile.
Labeling something as "very dangerous" is no argument. The world is full of dangerous things — by which I mean things which can cause harm when misused. It's the misuse that's a danger, not the thing by itself. Would you argue that this gun, when carried by a police officer, is "dangerous"? Not likely. What basis, then, to argue that it's somehow transmogrified into something to be feared in the hands of the civilian? And it's just as possible for bystanders to be hit by a car in a farmers market as it is for them to be hit by stray bullets. Neither provides a justification for removing the offending product from the market.
Update: Countertop Chronicles fisks the livin' daylights out of the NYPD and Newsday over their article on the FN Five-Seven. Best quote, in light of the wailing about civilians getting their hands on one of these pistols:
You see, FN has restricted sales of the Five-seveN to military and law enforcement agencies only!!!
What's that you say, Mr. Hutton's story and concerns are utter bogus bullshit? Yep, you heard right.
According to Modern Fireams, the Five-seveN is available from FN for government or law enforcement sales only a point confirmed by FN's own web page.
Suggested Price: (Law Enforcement agencies only- 5.7 x 28 caliber weapons are not available to the general public)
You know, that just chaps my ass. Of course, they're a European company, and over there, civilians are still considered as beings who are beneath the annointed overseers. Not over here, FN, thank you very much (NOT!). Oh wait, we have the same bullshit over here too.
The sky is still falling (blog)
By SayUncle
In an update to the FN Pistol non-controversy, the Brady Campaign has issued a press release urging congress to ban the gun. Nevermind that the gun isn’t available to the public, the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms notes that the round is not armor piercing.
The anti-gunners always need a bogeyman, even if they must invent it.
Update: Apparently, someone from the Brady Campaign reports that they purchased one which I find odd. The FN page (which is now gone but here’s a google cache) says the pistol is for military and law enforcement only.
[feedback elided]
In an update to the FN Pistol non-controversy, the Brady Campaign has issued a press release urging congress to ban the gun. Nevermind that the gun isn’t available to the public, the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms notes that the round is not armor piercing.
The anti-gunners always need a bogeyman, even if they must invent it.
Update: Apparently, someone from the Brady Campaign reports that they purchased one which I find odd. The FN page (which is now gone but here’s a google cache) says the pistol is for military and law enforcement only.
[feedback elided]
FN 5.7 Pistol (another blog)
FN 5.7 Pistol
According to the ATF, responding to a press release from the Brady Campaign to End Handgun Violence, the “SS196” pistol cartridge for the FN 5.7 pistol is not armor piercing.
First, a gun picture:
Ah, yes, welcome to the plastic fantastic twenty-first century.
Second, the Brady claims:
The gun, the Five-SeveN handgun manufactured by FN Herstal of Belgium, is lightweight and easily concealable. IBPO Legislative Director Steve Lenkhart referred to the Five-Seven as “an assault rifle that fits in your pocket.”
If it was an assault rifle, then it would be fully automatic. The version sold to private citizens is not, of course, as it would be regulated under the National Firearms Act of 1934 and thus unavailable to private citizens, like any fully automatic firearm made after 1968.
It is marketed by the company on its website as intended “to defeat the enemy in all close combat situations in urban areas, jungle conditions, night missions and any self defense action. Enemy personnel, even wearing body armor can be effectively engaged up to 200 meters. Kevlar® helmets and vests as well as the CRISAT protection will be penetrated.”
Well, no, the private citizen version of this pistol is not marketed in this fashion. The law enforcement and military version of this pistol is marketed this way. The Brady Campaign is not sensitive to market segments, however, activism is a global issue.
What does the ATF say?
FTB has also examined a 5.7 X 28 mm projectile that FN Herstal has designated the “SS196.” The SS196 is loaded with a Hornady 40 grain, jacketed lead bullet. FTB classified SS196 ammunition as not armor piercing ammunition under Federal firearms statutes.
According to FNH USA, FN Herstal tested the SS192 ammunition. SS192 ammunition did not penetrate the Level IIIA vests that were tested. FNH USA states that SS196, Hornady V-Max 40 gr. bullets fired from a 4-3/4 inch barrel did not penetrate the Level II vests that were used in testing.
FNH USA has informed FTB that SS192 is no longer imported for commercial sale to the United States and that commercial sales of 5.7 X 28mm ammunition are restricted to the SS196 (not armor piercing).
In my opinion, if you want a hot .22 pistol, there are certainly better choices than this expensive number with its expensive ammunition. Criminals and terrorists don't have a lot of money to spend on this crud when there are easier targets.
But to the Brady Campaign there is no easier target than guns it thinks no one should ever need. If you want to boil a frog, you turn the heat up slowly. They attack the .50 caliber guns and the hot .22s and continue working their way towards the middle, at which point no guns or ammunition would be legal.
If I was going to spend another $900 on a pistol, I'd get another 1911, probably a longslide in 10mm. If I had more than that to spend, I'd be getting a .50 GI. I'm not going to waste my time with a hot .22. There are far better target pistols and there are far better defensive pistols. This gun was targeted at people who like to have guns that look like what the professionals use.
Josh Poulson
According to the ATF, responding to a press release from the Brady Campaign to End Handgun Violence, the “SS196” pistol cartridge for the FN 5.7 pistol is not armor piercing.
First, a gun picture:
Ah, yes, welcome to the plastic fantastic twenty-first century.
Second, the Brady claims:
The gun, the Five-SeveN handgun manufactured by FN Herstal of Belgium, is lightweight and easily concealable. IBPO Legislative Director Steve Lenkhart referred to the Five-Seven as “an assault rifle that fits in your pocket.”
If it was an assault rifle, then it would be fully automatic. The version sold to private citizens is not, of course, as it would be regulated under the National Firearms Act of 1934 and thus unavailable to private citizens, like any fully automatic firearm made after 1968.
It is marketed by the company on its website as intended “to defeat the enemy in all close combat situations in urban areas, jungle conditions, night missions and any self defense action. Enemy personnel, even wearing body armor can be effectively engaged up to 200 meters. Kevlar® helmets and vests as well as the CRISAT protection will be penetrated.”
Well, no, the private citizen version of this pistol is not marketed in this fashion. The law enforcement and military version of this pistol is marketed this way. The Brady Campaign is not sensitive to market segments, however, activism is a global issue.
What does the ATF say?
FTB has also examined a 5.7 X 28 mm projectile that FN Herstal has designated the “SS196.” The SS196 is loaded with a Hornady 40 grain, jacketed lead bullet. FTB classified SS196 ammunition as not armor piercing ammunition under Federal firearms statutes.
According to FNH USA, FN Herstal tested the SS192 ammunition. SS192 ammunition did not penetrate the Level IIIA vests that were tested. FNH USA states that SS196, Hornady V-Max 40 gr. bullets fired from a 4-3/4 inch barrel did not penetrate the Level II vests that were used in testing.
FNH USA has informed FTB that SS192 is no longer imported for commercial sale to the United States and that commercial sales of 5.7 X 28mm ammunition are restricted to the SS196 (not armor piercing).
In my opinion, if you want a hot .22 pistol, there are certainly better choices than this expensive number with its expensive ammunition. Criminals and terrorists don't have a lot of money to spend on this crud when there are easier targets.
But to the Brady Campaign there is no easier target than guns it thinks no one should ever need. If you want to boil a frog, you turn the heat up slowly. They attack the .50 caliber guns and the hot .22s and continue working their way towards the middle, at which point no guns or ammunition would be legal.
If I was going to spend another $900 on a pistol, I'd get another 1911, probably a longslide in 10mm. If I had more than that to spend, I'd be getting a .50 GI. I'm not going to waste my time with a hot .22. There are far better target pistols and there are far better defensive pistols. This gun was targeted at people who like to have guns that look like what the professionals use.
Josh Poulson
Police Groups to Warn Officers Nationwide About New Cop Killer Gun, Urge Appropriate Congressional Action
1/26/2005 2:58:00 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
To: Assignment Desk, Daybook Editor
Contact: Anne Rosello of The Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence United with the Million Mom March, 202-898-0792
News Advisory:
The National Organization of Black Law Enforcement Executives, International Association of Chiefs of Police, International Brotherhood of Police Officers and other national law enforcement groups will sound an alarm to law enforcement professionals around the country about a new handgun available to the general public that is capable of firing bullets through soft police body armor.
The press conference will take place at 10 a.m. Thursday, Jan. 27 at the First District headquarters of the District of Columbia Police Department located at 415 Fourth Street SW in Washington, D.C. Speakers will include Bernard Thompson, legislative Chair of NOBLE; Metropolitan Police Assistant Chief Brian Jordan, Gaithersburg, Md. Police Chief MaryAnn Viverette who serves as Vice President of the IACP and Steve Lenkart, Legislative Director of the IBPO.
The gun, the Five-SeveN handgun manufactured by FN Herstal of Belgium, is lightweight and easily concealable. It is marketed by the company on its Web site as intended "to defeat the enemy in all close combat situations in urban areas, jungle conditions, night missions and any self defense action. Enemy personnel, even wearing body armor can be effectively engaged up to 200 meters. Kevlar(r) helmets and vests as well as the CRISAT protection will be penetrated." -- http://www.fnherstal.com/html/Index.htm.
Staff of the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence recently purchased the weapon at a Virginia gun dealer and test-fired it. The bullets successfully penetrated a police Kevlar vest. A video of the test will be shown and available to news media.
http://www.usnewswire.com/
-0-
/© 2005 U.S. Newswire 202-347-2770/
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
To: Assignment Desk, Daybook Editor
Contact: Anne Rosello of The Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence United with the Million Mom March, 202-898-0792
News Advisory:
The National Organization of Black Law Enforcement Executives, International Association of Chiefs of Police, International Brotherhood of Police Officers and other national law enforcement groups will sound an alarm to law enforcement professionals around the country about a new handgun available to the general public that is capable of firing bullets through soft police body armor.
The press conference will take place at 10 a.m. Thursday, Jan. 27 at the First District headquarters of the District of Columbia Police Department located at 415 Fourth Street SW in Washington, D.C. Speakers will include Bernard Thompson, legislative Chair of NOBLE; Metropolitan Police Assistant Chief Brian Jordan, Gaithersburg, Md. Police Chief MaryAnn Viverette who serves as Vice President of the IACP and Steve Lenkart, Legislative Director of the IBPO.
The gun, the Five-SeveN handgun manufactured by FN Herstal of Belgium, is lightweight and easily concealable. It is marketed by the company on its Web site as intended "to defeat the enemy in all close combat situations in urban areas, jungle conditions, night missions and any self defense action. Enemy personnel, even wearing body armor can be effectively engaged up to 200 meters. Kevlar(r) helmets and vests as well as the CRISAT protection will be penetrated." -- http://www.fnherstal.com/html/Index.htm.
Staff of the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence recently purchased the weapon at a Virginia gun dealer and test-fired it. The bullets successfully penetrated a police Kevlar vest. A video of the test will be shown and available to news media.
http://www.usnewswire.com/
-0-
/© 2005 U.S. Newswire 202-347-2770/
The FN FiveSeven being called a "Cop Killer" gun by the Brady gun nuts...
Here's an interesting FACT FILLED letter written by a police officer and sent to the Brady people:
Mr. Shanks,
I'm writing in reference to the Law Enforcement Officers Safety Alert titled, "Cop Killer Gun Available to the Public." I appreciate your concerns for my safety, for I am a police officer with the City of Phoenix, Arizona. However I feel I need to point out some inaccuracies in your news bulletin.
You state that, "In 2003, there were 1,866 officers assaulted in the United States with firearms." That is true, however it's very disingenuous to not continue on to say that this represents only 3% of all assaults on officers (2003 UCR). You will see this is a very small number when compared to the 46,842 assaults involving personal weapons (feet, fists, etc.), 8,059 involving other dangerous weapons (bats, clubs, etc...), and rounding out the bottom of the spectrum 1,074 assaults involving Knives or other cutting instruments.
Maybe you should have stated instead that only 45 Officers were killed in 2003 with a firearms. 34 of those were killed with handguns, and of those 10 were killed with their own weapon. Of those 34 killed none by vest penetration. The 4 officers that were killed by vest penetration were killed by .223 caliber (2), .300, and 7mm caliber rifles. The FN Five-seveN has killed no one.
You also state that the manufacturer advertises that the firearm, "will perforate 48 layers of Kevlar up to 200 meters." That may be true, however this is as advertised to the military and law enforcement while using SS190 armor piercing ammunition. Maybe you should focus on trying to ban the ammunition instead of the gun? Never mind, that ammunition is only available to military and Law enforcement. You see the BATFE has rule for selling ammunition, especially AP ammunition (see Below):
The classification of all ammunition is governed strictly by the definitions presented in the GCA. Specifically, as defined in 18 U.S.C. Section 921(a)(17)(B), the term "armor piercing ammunition" means-
1. a projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun and which is constructed entirely (excluding the presence of traces of other substances) from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper, or depleted uranium; or
2. a full jacketed projectile larger than .22 caliber designed and intended for use in a handgun and whose jacket has a weight of more than 25 percent of the total weight of the projectile.
This type of ammunition is not commercially available. However if you were to purchase this handgun you would be able to buy SS196. This is the only type of ammunition available for commercial sales for this weapon. It uses a Hornady 40gr V-max bullet and leaves the barrel at 2100fps. Interestingly enough this bullet was fired from a FN Five-seveN with a 4 3/4 inch barrel and did not penetrate a Level II vest (by the way most officers like myself wear a level IIIa vest).
You state that this weapon "comes with THREE 20 ROUND MAGAZINES--That is 60 rounds of police body armor piercing ammunition!" Well, no. That means it comes with 3 x 20 round magazines, as for the "police body armor Piercing ammunition(!), well I covered that in the above paragraph.
Also stated is "Because the range and accuracy of this weapon a gunman could easily hold an entire shift of law enforcement officers at bay for hours, making it almost impossible to engage with typical law enforcement service weapons." The accuracy of a weapon is dependant on the trigger puller behind it, not the weapon itself. Most weapons are extremely accurate with the right shooter. I can also tell you I've seen someone with no weapon keep cops at bay for hours just behind a closed door. You don't advocate getting rid of doors do you? An officer with an issue Colt Carbine can easily place rounds on target against someone with one of the FNs. Rifle are inherently more accurate and a more forgiving weapon to shoot.
Lastly sir, you state, "The Brady Center to Prevent Gun Violence believes there is no place in our society for this weapon." Sir, its time to be honest. The Brady Center believes there in no place in our society for ANY type of firearm. All, I repeat ALL, studies have shown that gun control does not deter crime/gun crimes. Since the U.K. and Australia have banned the ownership of most guns the crime rate has soared. Why is it that gun friendly states have the least amount of Crime? I'll make a deal with you. I won't try and take away your constitutional 1st amendment rights to print and distribute your safety alerts full of half-truths and omissions, and you don't mess with my 2nd amendment right to own any type of gun I want. Is it a deal?
sincerely,
Adam Frost
Phoenix Police Dept.
Mr. Shanks,
I'm writing in reference to the Law Enforcement Officers Safety Alert titled, "Cop Killer Gun Available to the Public." I appreciate your concerns for my safety, for I am a police officer with the City of Phoenix, Arizona. However I feel I need to point out some inaccuracies in your news bulletin.
You state that, "In 2003, there were 1,866 officers assaulted in the United States with firearms." That is true, however it's very disingenuous to not continue on to say that this represents only 3% of all assaults on officers (2003 UCR). You will see this is a very small number when compared to the 46,842 assaults involving personal weapons (feet, fists, etc.), 8,059 involving other dangerous weapons (bats, clubs, etc...), and rounding out the bottom of the spectrum 1,074 assaults involving Knives or other cutting instruments.
Maybe you should have stated instead that only 45 Officers were killed in 2003 with a firearms. 34 of those were killed with handguns, and of those 10 were killed with their own weapon. Of those 34 killed none by vest penetration. The 4 officers that were killed by vest penetration were killed by .223 caliber (2), .300, and 7mm caliber rifles. The FN Five-seveN has killed no one.
You also state that the manufacturer advertises that the firearm, "will perforate 48 layers of Kevlar up to 200 meters." That may be true, however this is as advertised to the military and law enforcement while using SS190 armor piercing ammunition. Maybe you should focus on trying to ban the ammunition instead of the gun? Never mind, that ammunition is only available to military and Law enforcement. You see the BATFE has rule for selling ammunition, especially AP ammunition (see Below):
The classification of all ammunition is governed strictly by the definitions presented in the GCA. Specifically, as defined in 18 U.S.C. Section 921(a)(17)(B), the term "armor piercing ammunition" means-
1. a projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun and which is constructed entirely (excluding the presence of traces of other substances) from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper, or depleted uranium; or
2. a full jacketed projectile larger than .22 caliber designed and intended for use in a handgun and whose jacket has a weight of more than 25 percent of the total weight of the projectile.
This type of ammunition is not commercially available. However if you were to purchase this handgun you would be able to buy SS196. This is the only type of ammunition available for commercial sales for this weapon. It uses a Hornady 40gr V-max bullet and leaves the barrel at 2100fps. Interestingly enough this bullet was fired from a FN Five-seveN with a 4 3/4 inch barrel and did not penetrate a Level II vest (by the way most officers like myself wear a level IIIa vest).
You state that this weapon "comes with THREE 20 ROUND MAGAZINES--That is 60 rounds of police body armor piercing ammunition!" Well, no. That means it comes with 3 x 20 round magazines, as for the "police body armor Piercing ammunition(!), well I covered that in the above paragraph.
Also stated is "Because the range and accuracy of this weapon a gunman could easily hold an entire shift of law enforcement officers at bay for hours, making it almost impossible to engage with typical law enforcement service weapons." The accuracy of a weapon is dependant on the trigger puller behind it, not the weapon itself. Most weapons are extremely accurate with the right shooter. I can also tell you I've seen someone with no weapon keep cops at bay for hours just behind a closed door. You don't advocate getting rid of doors do you? An officer with an issue Colt Carbine can easily place rounds on target against someone with one of the FNs. Rifle are inherently more accurate and a more forgiving weapon to shoot.
Lastly sir, you state, "The Brady Center to Prevent Gun Violence believes there is no place in our society for this weapon." Sir, its time to be honest. The Brady Center believes there in no place in our society for ANY type of firearm. All, I repeat ALL, studies have shown that gun control does not deter crime/gun crimes. Since the U.K. and Australia have banned the ownership of most guns the crime rate has soared. Why is it that gun friendly states have the least amount of Crime? I'll make a deal with you. I won't try and take away your constitutional 1st amendment rights to print and distribute your safety alerts full of half-truths and omissions, and you don't mess with my 2nd amendment right to own any type of gun I want. Is it a deal?
sincerely,
Adam Frost
Phoenix Police Dept.
Tuesday, February 01, 2005
Civie P90 exists! (More Pix)
FN Semi P90 & F2000 (pix)
At the Shot Show , FN did not have these on display but I was invited into their conference room and suddenly, in my hands, was the new civilian P90:
And F2000:
And as if that was not enough the rep told me they will be coming out with a semi version of the SCAR.
The P90 & F2000 should be out by fall and there is no date for the SCAR.
Last edited by HKrazy : January 29th, 2005 at 03:26 PM.
At the Shot Show , FN did not have these on display but I was invited into their conference room and suddenly, in my hands, was the new civilian P90:
And F2000:
And as if that was not enough the rep told me they will be coming out with a semi version of the SCAR.
The P90 & F2000 should be out by fall and there is no date for the SCAR.
Last edited by HKrazy : January 29th, 2005 at 03:26 PM.
Civie P90 exists!
I do believe my credit card and bank account will suffer for a long time to come...
[Ed - update 12/27/2006 : that prediction was absolutely true...]
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