| Author | Message |
| TonyWilliams
Joined: Sun Sep 27, 2009 8:52 am
Posts: 640
Location: UK  |  GIAT ADR: 5.7x22 or 5.7x25? I am trying to discover some information about the odd French PDW of the late 1980s, the GIAT ADR (Armes de Défense Rapprochée). It had two pistol grips, one at the back and one at the front, complete with two triggers. The project was cancelled in favour of the FN P90 when FN was acquired by GIAT.
Internet sources indicate that it was chambered in a shortened 5.56x45 case, but the case length given varies between 22mm and 25mm. Some sources also say that the case was based on the 7.65x21 (.30 Luger), necked down - the case diameter is the same but the Luger case would be less strong.
Can anyone provide the correct information about the cartridge, and also the bullet weight and muzzle velocity, if possible?
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| Tue Jan 11, 2011 11:41 am |   |
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| TonyWilliams
Joined: Sun Sep 27, 2009 8:52 am
Posts: 640
Location: UK | Re: GIAT ADR: 5.7x22 or 5.7x25? I can now answer the question about the cartridge cases, following data received from Max.
GIAT experimented with several different cases for the ADR (all in 5.56mm calibre), some based on the 5.56x45, others on the 9x19, with case lengths of 20, 22, 25 and 30mm. The 5.7x25 based on the 5.56x45 seems to have been the ultimate one.
I still don't have any bullet weight or muzzle velocity data on these, though...
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| Wed Jan 12, 2011 4:55 am | |
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| Maverick1112003
Joined: Sun Sep 27, 2009 12:54 pm
Posts: 57
Location: FRANCE | Re: GIAT ADR: 5.7x22 or 5.7x25? Here, a picture of 2 cartridges of my collection : 5.7x30 (based on the 5.56x45) and 5.7x22 (based on .. nothing)
Michel
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| Wed Jan 12, 2011 5:25 pm | |
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| TonyWilliams
Joined: Sun Sep 27, 2009 8:52 am
Posts: 640
Location: UK | Re: GIAT ADR: 5.7x22 or 5.7x25? Interesting, Michel - what's the rim diameter of the small one?
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| Wed Jan 12, 2011 9:51 pm | |
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| Maverick1112003
Joined: Sun Sep 27, 2009 12:54 pm
Posts: 57
Location: FRANCE | Re: GIAT ADR: 5.7x22 or 5.7x25? TonyWilliams wrote: Interesting, Michel - what's the rim diameter of the small one?
8.42mm for the rim and 8.54mm at the base of the case.
Michel
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| Thu Jan 13, 2011 3:39 am | |
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| TonyWilliams
Joined: Sun Sep 27, 2009 8:52 am
Posts: 640
Location: UK | Re: GIAT ADR: 5.7x22 or 5.7x25? That doesn't match either the 5.56x45 or the 9x19. The most likely candidate for the original case that I can see is the 7.65x20 Longue.
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| Thu Jan 13, 2011 5:11 am | |
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| PaulSmith
Joined: Mon Sep 28, 2009 9:46 am
Posts: 135 | Re: GIAT ADR: 5.7x22 or 5.7x25? The 5.56 x 30 (based on the 5.56x45 case) was one of the first rounds developed in this program. These date from 1986. In early 1987 the 5.56 x 25 was developed (also based on the 5.56 x 45). In mid-1987 the 5.56 x 20 (based on the 9x19) was developed but quickly abandoned as the shape was not suitable for an automatic weapon. In 1988 the 5.56 x 25 was developed. This round used a unique case type and had a head diameter of 8.5mm. There were both brass and lacquered steel cases tried and featured a buttonhole or stirrup anvil type of primer. This case type was found to be too long to be used in a pistol grip magazine and was shortened to become the 5.56 x 22 that Maverick shows. These date from ca. 1989 and can be found in both brass and lacq. steel cases. The projectile weight for the 5.56 x 22 is 2.57 g. The projectile has a GM jacket, steel core tip and GM slug behind the tip. No muzzle velocity data available.
From left to right:
5.56 x 30 (based on 5.56 x 45; same headstamp as Maverick’s)
5.56 x 20 (based on 9 x 19). This is a fired case with an index notch cut in the rim, but is without a pressure test hole. No headstamp.
5.56 x 25 (novel case design) 2-piece aluminum dummy
5.56x 25 fired lsc. No headstamp.
5.56 x 22 fired brass case with 2 types of early projectiles – solid aluminum and GM jacket with plastic core.
5.56 x 22 – three loaded variations (centre one has a projectile from the FN P90 project). None of these rounds are headstamped.
5.56 x 22 – fired cases showing significant deformation as a result of being fired in a blowback weapon.
The best reference is Jean Huon’s fine French/English booklet published in 1999 (ISBN 2-9513330-0-5)
_________________
Paul Smith
IAA and ECRA Life Member
Collector of Military Experimental Ammunition
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| Fri Jan 14, 2011 8:30 pm | |
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| JohnMoss
Joined: Thu Sep 17, 2009 5:42 pm
Posts: 2400 | Re: GIAT ADR: 5.7x22 or 5.7x25? Paul,
Do you know where we can get a copy of that book? I never heard of these cartridges until this thread. Was there a true auto pistol made for it? I ask, because I only collect PDW cartridges if there was also a true pistol made for it, as in the case of the little FN cartridge.
_________________
John Moss
U.S. Army and USAR 1956-1965
Life Member IAA
Life Member ECRA
Benefactor Member NRA
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| Fri Jan 14, 2011 10:13 pm | |
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| TonyWilliams
Joined: Sun Sep 27, 2009 8:52 am
Posts: 640
Location: UK | Re: GIAT ADR: 5.7x22 or 5.7x25? Many thanks, Paul!
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| Sat Jan 15, 2011 5:24 am | |
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| Maverick1112003
Joined: Sun Sep 27, 2009 12:54 pm
Posts: 57
Location: FRANCE | Re: GIAT ADR: 5.7x22 or 5.7x25? Great information, thanks a lot
Michel
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| Sat Jan 15, 2011 8:54 am | |
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| PaulSmith
Joined: Mon Sep 28, 2009 9:46 am
Posts: 135 | Re: GIAT ADR: 5.7x22 or 5.7x25? Morning John,
I purchased my copy from Jean at an ECRA meeting some years ago. It seems to have been produced in very limited quantities as my copy is marked #25.
The only weapon described is the one illustrated on the cover, so no true pistol per se. Let me know if you need Jean's e-mail address.
Regards,
Paul
_________________
Paul Smith
IAA and ECRA Life Member
Collector of Military Experimental Ammunition
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| Sat Jan 15, 2011 9:19 am | |
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| Maverick1112003
Joined: Sun Sep 27, 2009 12:54 pm
Posts: 57
Location: FRANCE | Re: GIAT ADR: 5.7x22 or 5.7x25? There is a interesting study on the last edition of the Huon's book "Les cartouches pour fusils & mitrailleuses"
Two pages with pictures of PPI and ADPS versions.
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| Sun Jan 16, 2011 9:02 am | |
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| TonyWilliams
Joined: Sun Sep 27, 2009 8:52 am
Posts: 640
Location: UK | Re: GIAT ADR: 5.7x22 or 5.7x25? Paul - in Jean Huon's book, is the designation given as 5.56x22 or 5.7x22?
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| Sun Jan 16, 2011 9:28 am | |
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| PaulSmith
Joined: Mon Sep 28, 2009 9:46 am
Posts: 135 | Re: GIAT ADR: 5.7x22 or 5.7x25? Michel - the APDS (in the 5.7 x 22) and PPI (5.7 x 25) loads are illustrated in the ADR book. In addition, there are also a few aluminum dummy rounds that are anodized in either yellow (5.56 x 20) or orange colours (5.7 x 35 and 5.7 x 22).
There is one other round described in this book which was very short lived. It is a 5.56 x 19 (with a 8.45 mm base diameter) and chronologically appears to fit in between the 5.56 x 20 and the 5.7 x 25
Tony - the designations provided are: 5.56 x 30, 5.56 x 25, 5.56 x 20, 5.7 x 22 and 5.7 x 25. A box label is also illustrated and it is for the 5.7 x 22.
Paul
_________________
Paul Smith
IAA and ECRA Life Member
Collector of Military Experimental Ammunition
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| Sun Jan 16, 2011 11:05 am | |
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| TonyWilliams
Joined: Sun Sep 27, 2009 8:52 am
Posts: 640
Location: UK | Re: GIAT ADR: 5.7x22 or 5.7x25? Thanks again, Paul!
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| Sun Jan 16, 2011 11:12 am | |
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