Saturday, December 13, 2008
Bryan and AssociatesCrosman, Benjamin, Sheridan, and Daisy Factory Authorized Repair Station
Bryan and AssociatesCrosman, Benjamin, Sheridan, and Daisy Factory Authorized Repair Station
Instructional Shooting Kit
[I thought the following was interesting. The design would be more interesting if the pellet was actually seated in the chamber insert instead of the barrel insert.]
Instructional Shooting Kit
This kit is intended for indoor or instructional purposes.
It consists of a chamber insert (1), a barrel insert.(2), primers (3), pellets (4), a screwdriver (5), a cleaning brush (6), a ramrod (7), a small carboard container to hold the pellets and primers (8) and a target (see below).
The assembly works by seating a pellet and the bore end of the barrel insert, then pushing the barrel insert into the chamber.
Then, the top of the chamber insert is removed, and a primer is place in the cup. The insert is then chambered in the rifle.
The practice pellet has a range of 5 to 20 yards.
Instructional Shooting Kit
This kit is intended for indoor or instructional purposes.
It consists of a chamber insert (1), a barrel insert.(2), primers (3), pellets (4), a screwdriver (5), a cleaning brush (6), a ramrod (7), a small carboard container to hold the pellets and primers (8) and a target (see below).
The assembly works by seating a pellet and the bore end of the barrel insert, then pushing the barrel insert into the chamber.
Then, the top of the chamber insert is removed, and a primer is place in the cup. The insert is then chambered in the rifle.
The practice pellet has a range of 5 to 20 yards.
Friday, December 12, 2008
I. Personal Defense Weapon: Only for Defense?
I. Personal Defense Weapon: Only for Defense?
There has been some debate on the criteria, need and tactical role
of the PDW. Let us examine this issue. It can be compared to the
submachine gun. The SMG provided firepower in a smaller package as a
companion arm to the World War II and post-war battle rifles. However,
with the miniaturization leading to the assault rifle, the role of the SMG has
supposedly declined.
Yet the SMG shoots on! Its major disadvantage is lack of range,
because of only firing pistol ammunition. This seeming disadvantage has
many benefits which are low: recoil, muzzle blast, climb, penetration, size,
weight, cost and training time (Taylor, Analysis 14). The Europeans, Israelis,
and Chinese have been more appreciative of the SMG and machine
pistol than the Americans.
The SMG will be more versatile than the handgun and the shotgun
in most tactical situations (Taylor, Sub 8). No one questions its OFFENSIVE
capabilities. Its use has been expanded from the military to police, SWAT
and others.
Handicaps of the SMG
But its size, weight and limited range handicaps its use, especially
with the arrive of the assault rifle and mini-assault rifle, such as: Colt XM177,
HK53, AKSU, etc.
II. Machine Pistol to the Rescue?
Even smaller than the SMG are the machine pistols. They have the
compact size and low weight desired for the PDW. But most have the
following problems: not controllable on full automatic fire, short ranged
and awkward with stock and/or attached holster ( Karwan 60-1). The
standard pistol design fares very poorly for full automatic fire. Only the
very expert can use them effectively in specialized circumstances
(Thompson, Mastering 66-7). The PDW must learn from the deficiencies of
the machine pistol.
IIII. Back to the Future
The Astra Model F. Hill SMG, Polish PM63, Colt SCAMP, Ingram, Davis
arm gun and Sarvis forearm gun all have characteristics that would lead
to a good PDW. That is to say, compact firepower.
IV. Changing Requirements and Present Criteria for PDW
In 1980 the American Rifleman reported that the Joint Service Small
Arms Program wanted to replace the 1911A1.45 pistol with a 9mm and
improve hit probability (Cowgill 82). Even today the Close Combat
Armament Center brochure of TACOM-ARDEC, Picatinny Arsenal, lists the
M9 as a PDW.
The requirements changed in 1993 from a simple handgun to:
Weight: <1.5 lbs. 100 meter range
Defeat body armor at 50 meters
Hand-free carry and to be worn on person 24 hours a day
Use by special operations troops ( Crist 102, 106).
According to the Army Small Arms Master Plan of 1995, it was
reported that the PDW should be:
<3 lbs. 500-625 ft. range
Concealable Recoil of 9mm
Low magnetic signature Reliable in all weather (Grimes 34-5)
A later report in 1997 indicates:
Replace pistols/SMGs Selective fire
200 meter range Soft/hard target capability
Leap ahead technology
Users: those not armed with rifles, special operations, and law
enforcement ( Steadman, Fighting 21-2).
Nick Steadman reported that the NATO European Staff target for
the PDW as of October 1999 was:
Weight: Handheld – 1 kg (700 gm. desired) Shoulder - 3 kg
Range: 100-200 meters Protected targets: 30-50 meters desired
Suitable while wearing armor, NBC suits and winter clothing (SADW).
According to Mark McFadden of the Picatinny Arsenal, the U.K. has
combined with NATO to develop a PDW replacing the 9mm. However,
the U.S. does not intend to replace its 9 mm systems (E-mail).
U.K. Summary of Requirements:
<.5 meters long Weight: loaded – 3 kg.
Defeat CRISAT protected targets: 150 meters
Off the shelf designs in calibers not used by UK armed forces and in
5.56 will be assessed (no 9mm?)
First batch in service 2003; follow up deliveries: 2004 and 2005
(MoD) (Wood).
In summary, the PDW requirements evolved from a replacement for
the .45 pistol to an entirely new ambitious and even radical firearms
category.
V. Design Problems
To keep a PDW compact, magazine capacity of 25 rds., range
requirements and body armor penetration are difficult to achieve.
Ammunition Selection is critical. To achieve high magazine
capacity, reducing the base size of the cartridge allows more rounds to
be stored in the magazine. Reducing the bullet size and weight also helps
with this problem, i.e., HK 4.6mm, FN 5.7mm.
Storing the magazine in the pistol handle does not allow enough
round capacity (25 rds.). Enlarging the pistol handle will make the firearm
difficult to use for those with less than large hands and with winter gloves.
Necking down standard pistol rounds allows the use of a standard pistol
design, i.e. .224Boz, .224 VOB. Note, as discussed previously in machine
pistols, this layout does not allow good control on full auto-fire.
Most of these attempts mean using cartridges of small size and thus
stopping power In the Korean War, the 7.62 Tokarev and .30 carbine
gained the reputation of having poor stopping power (Russ 143, 151, 212).
Increasing the base or overall size of the cartridge will increase the
length and size of the magazine, thus hurting the compactness of the
PDW, i.e., 224Boz, 5.56mm NATO.
Body Armor Penetration of CRISAT protected targets at 150 meters is
a formidable task for the PDW. CRISAT body armor consists of 1. mm
titanium with twenty layers of aramid (John, James 45). If this is an allimportant
demand, then the 9mm will not do. Then others will ask, why not
go to the 5.56 NATO cartridge.
Other possible candidates are: . 221 Fireball, 5.7 Johnson, .30
carbine, 9mm Win. Magnum, 9.2mm Russian. High technology
ammunition, such as the Steyr plastic cased flechette could be utilized.
Any new ammunition means increased cost and logistics.
Use of the standard magazine increases the size of the firearm. The
Czechoslovak and Uzi designs are the most space efficient. The new HK
4.6 mm PDW follows this layout. Still, in most designs the magazine
protrudes, hurting the compactness of the firearm.
Ammunition and Size will Determine the Design of the PDW.
VI Can the 9mm x 19 Fly?
Would the 9mm NATO make an effective PDW cartridge? Does it
have the effective range?
Theoretical Range:
Line of sight danger zone 350 meters (45 x 160 cm target)
Terminal Ballistics 630 (15 kg, 108 ft lbs)
Relative penetration (ball) 300 (steel helmet)
(Kjellgren 40-3)
Majority SMGs 100 – 200
Selective fire/long barrel 250-350 yds. (Nelson/Musgrave 6)
SMGs 150 meters (Dmitrieff 9)
SMGs – aimed/suppressive fire 200 (Ferguson 77)
Demonstrated Range:
.22RF handgun/no wind 500 yds. (full silhouette)
.38 target handguns 300 (turkey silhouette)
(Keith 109, 116)
SIG P210 pistol 100-200 (Thompson 71)
MP5 Semi-Auto 150 (Ayoob 7)
SMGs 100-150 meters
(Taylor, Sensible 23)
Marshal Arms Pistol 150 yds. (Balsavage)
It becomes apparent that the 9mm x 19 has more range potential
than most are aware of. Remember Elmer Keith using a .44 magnum
hitting a deer at 500-600 yards ( Seyfried 26).
Heavier Loading/Longer Barrel would improve the 9mm as Dmitrieff
suggests, which would put it into the carbine class (3). This is what the
Czechoslovaks did with the Models 24 and 26 in 7.62 Tok (Nelson and
Lockhoven 189). 9mm 5mg ammunition exists and +P, +P+ ammo are
used on a regular basis by law enforcement. Further comparisons are:
Thompson – Center pistol 9 in. barrel CCI Blazer 124 gr – 1350 Fps
Revolver 4 in barrel Rem. 357 125 – 1450
(Comus, 222, 4)
Walther P38 4-7/8 in Win. 115 – 1155
Marshal Arms Pistol 6.5 in Win. 115 – 1212
(Balsavage)
With a longer barrel, an increase of 15% velocity can be gained
(McLaughlin 67).
Better Sights equal to current assault rifles and/or high technology. Tritium
red dot type of sights would improve hit capability and range.
Body Armor can be overcome by using armor piercing ammunition at
reasonable ranges, although civilian police would not appreciate this.
Common ammo as used by the pistol is an advantage on the battlefield
(McLaughlin). Any new, non-standard ammunition increases logistical
supply problems. Note: the U.S. does not intend to change from the 9mm
system (McFadden). High tech ammunition not only increases logistics,
but also the time/cost for research and development. Will any nonstandard
ammunition provide a significant tactical advantage over the
9mm?
The 9mm x 19’s advantage is that it is the world’s most used military
pistol/SMG cartridge! Will the 9mm make an effective PDW? Only time,
range and armor piercing questions will tell.
VII Proposed Criteria for PDW
Height: 6 in/15.4cm Barrel: 7 in+/17.8 cm+
Length: <12 in/30cm Weight: 3 lbs/1.36 kg
Capacity: 25+ rds. Cyclic Rate: semi, burst, 600 rpm
Sights: Rifle, tritium dot Range: 150 meters
Stocks: Retractable, Detachable Ammo: 9mm, 221 fireball,
Steyr Flechette, ?
Features:
Ambidextrous controls Optional higher capacity
magazine
Flash suppressor/muzzle brake Suppressor
Picatinny rail for: sights Modular design
and accessories Tactical sling
Most important criteria:
Ammo selection must meet range, armor piercing and stopping
power requirements. Is the 9mm x 19 good enough? Will adopting nonstandard
or high tech ammo be enough of a tactical advantage over
the logistical disadvantage?
Sights: use assault rifle type of sight or the new tritium dot sights: Trijicon,
Ring Sight, Meprolight. These new types of sights will increase speed of
day/night target acquisition and range without needing batteries.
Stocks must be retractable, i.e., M3, H&K, etc. Also, detachable, folding,
sturdy and aid shooting.
The horizontal magazine makes the firearm more compact as contrasted
to standard magazines, which protrude from the firearm.
With the magazine placed horizontally above and parallel to the
barrel, it allows: compactness, high magazine capacity, able to fire from
the low-prone position, holsterable (Marshal Arms). Low barrel position
with the pistol handle forward makes repeat shots easier and to be fired
one-handed. The Hill SMG set the example for the HKG11, FNP90 and
Marshal Arms Assault Pistol.
Holsterable to be available to the user at all times.
Compact firepower, keep the PDW small. Do not make it into a larger
SMG or assault rifle.
VII (B) Slide comparing Uzi SMG to horizontal magazine firearm
VII (C) Slide comparing HKMP5 to Marshal Arms Assault Pistol
VIII Cautionary Note
PDW will be a highly desirable weapon for terrorists and criminals. It
offers concealed firepower, more range and magazine capacity than the
pistol and shotgun. More attention will be needed to secure these
firearms.
Yes, there are already other compact firearms out there. Also, we
all know that criminals follow all gun control legislation.
IX Need for and Tactical Role of the PDW
The PDW is not an assault rifle! For troops that need shorter rifles, arm
them with mini-assault rifles.
The pistol is regarded as a defensive weapon (Taylor, Analysis 75),
with a maximum effective range out to 25 meters for most personnel. Col.
Cooper states it takes a minimum of 500 rds. to train on (101). Also, the
instructors must be highly qualified. Its magazine capacity and range are
limited.
In 1963, Nelson’s The World’s SMG, stated, “Previous firearms for selfdefense,
such as pistols, are no longer sufficient for the crews of heavy
weapons, or for the members of small specialized infantry or patrol units.”
(20).
Dmitrieff echoed the above by saying, “The need for a light and
compact arm, more accurate than a pistol, has been felt by soldiers since
the introduction of firearms.” (5).
Both have encouraged the development and use of the SMG.
Chuck Taylor has pointed out that the stocked machine pistol and the
SMG are more effective than the pistol (Machine 50). Even though the
assault rifle has replaced the SMG in a larger role, both are too large for
PDW applications.
Tactical Mission Need: Personal Defense Weapon to provide more
firepower and range than a pistol, yet is smaller than the standard SMG,
carbine, and assault rifle. Required for crew-served weapons personnel,
wheel/armor/aircraft crews, combat leaders, special operations, police,
SWAT, etc. Holsterable/concealable. One-handed firing while: driving,
boarding ships, climbing, rappelling, wounded, etc. or those normally
issued with a pistol.
The PDW is controllable on full-automatic, has more range,
magazine capacity and is easier to train on than the pistol. Without a
stock, it is basically a defensive compact weapon. (Note: some slings aid
in firing). When a tanker has to sweep his vehicle or unhorse it – he will
have a far more capable PDW than a pistol!
Can the PDW Be Offensive?
Yes, with a well-designed stock that aids shooting. Detachable,
retractable, aid in compactness.
Goods sights equal to rifle or high tech tritium ret dot sights help in
target acquisition and range. Both stocks and sights give the PDW full use
of its potential.
Combined with other features previously mentioned, all combine to
give the PDW a hit capability to 150 meters and equal to most SMG in
combat effectiveness. The PDW could be compared to a miniaturized
SMG but with longer range and accuracy potential.
Its niche is compact firepower. With the recent emphasis on Military
Operations in Urban Terrain and Close Quarters Battle, the need for it is
even stronger.
Let us change the Personal Defense Weapon’s name to the
“Assault Pistol” to emphasize its size and offensive potential.
X Errors and Recommended Reading
All errors, opinions and conclusions are solely the author’s. The hope
of this presentation is to further debate, and in so doing, benefit the soldier
and police officer.
Recommended Reading
Historical:
World’s Submachine Guns, Vol. I, by Nelson, Lockhoven.
World’s Machine Pistols and Submachine Guns, Vol IIA, by Nelson,
Musgrave.
Shooting Impression:
Karward, Charles
Thompson, Leroy
both in leading firearms magazines.
Up-to-Date Info:
Small Arms Review: Smallarmsreview@aol.com
Steadman, Nick: Small Arms Data by Wire (SADW)
SADW @compuserve.com and leading firearms magazines.
Tactical Use of:
Books and articles by Taylor, Chuck:
The Combat Shotgun and Submachine Gun: A Special Weapons Analysis
SWAT magazine
Tactical Shooter
WORKS CITED
Ayoob, Massad. “Full Auto Firing Techniques.” Full Auto. Vol. 1. 1984.
Balsavage, Walter. “9mm x 19 Tests by author.”
Close Combat Armaments Center, U.S. Army Armament Research,
Development and Engineering Center. Picatinny Arsenal.
Cowgill, James. “Small Arms for Tomorrow’s Battlefield.” American
Rifleman. Jun. 1980.
Comus, Steve.The Gun Digest Book of 9mm Handguns. 2nd Ed. Northbrook:
DBI Books. MCMXCIII.
Cooper, Jeff. Cooper on Handguns. Los Angeles: Peterson. 1974.
Crimes, Vincent. “Small Arms Plan Yields Results, New Contracts.” National
Defense. Jul./Aug. 1995.
Crist, Stanley. “The Small Arms Master Plan.” The Gun Digest, 1993. 47th Ed.
Ken Warner. Northbrook: DBI Books. 1992.
Dmitrieff, G. Submachine Gun Designer’s Handbook. Cornville: Desert.
1981.
Ferguson, Tom. Modern Law Enforcement Weapons and Tactics. 2nd Ed.
Northbrook: DBI Books. MCMXCI.
John, Jeff and James, Gary. “World’s Hottest Pistol Round.” Guns and
Ammo: High Tech Firearms. 1999.
Karwan, Charles. “Spitfires.” American Handgunner: Combat 1999
Annual. 1999.
Keith, Elmer. Sixguns by Keith. Harrisburg: Stackpole. 1961.
McFadden, Mark J. E-mail to author. 14 Apr 2000.
McLoughlin, Chris. “SMGs, ARs and SGNs: Law Enforcement’s Choice.”
Small Arms Review. Jul. 1999.
Nelson, Thomas and Lockhoven, Hans. The World’s Submachine Guns
(Machine Pistols) Vol. I. Cologne: International Small Arms. 1964.
---. and Musgrave, Daniel. The World’s Machine Pistols and Submachine
Guns, Vol. IIA. Hong Kong: Chelsas Ltd. 1980.
Russ, Martin. Breakout: The Chosin Reservoir Campaign, Korea, 1950.
New York: Fromn, 1999.
Seyfried, Ross. “Long-Range Handgunning.” Handguns Annual. 1999.
Steadman, Nick. “Future Shot: More Bang for Your Buck (Rogers).”
Fighting Firearms. Spring 1997.
---. Small Arms Data by Wire (SADW). #29. Oct. 1999.
SADW@compuserve.com.
Taylor, Chuck. The Combat Shotgun and SMG: A Special Weapons
Analysis. Boulder: Paladin Press. 1985.
---. “Machine Pistols.” Guns Illustrated: 1968. Vernon Hills: DBI Books. 1967.
---. “The Safe, Sane and Sensible SMG.” SWAT. April 1982.
---. “The Submachine Gun Today.” Oct. 1999.
Thompson, Leroy. “Swiss Perfection for Y2K.” Handguns. Oct. 1999.
---. “Mastering the Machine Pistol.” Combat Handguns. Dec. 1999.
U.K. “Summary of Requirements: PDW.” MoD Contracts Bulletin
26 Jan. 2000.
Wood, N.M. E-mail “Future Possible Purchase DCC1/031-Personal Defense
Weapon.” Defence Procurement Agency, 15 Aug. 2000 to author.
IV. Changing Requirements and Present Criteria for PDW
In 1980 the American Rifleman reported that the Joint Service Small Arms
Program wanted to replace the 1911A1.45 pistol with a 9mm and improve hit
probability (Cowgill 82). Even today the Close Combat Armament Center
brochure of TACOM-ARDEC, Picatinny Arsenal, lists the M9 as a PDW.
The requirements changed in 1993 from a simple handgun to:
Weight: <1.5 lbs. 100 meter range
Defeat body armor at 50 meters
Hand-free carry and to be worn on person 24 hours a day
Use by special operations troops (Crist 102, 106).
According to the Army Small Arms Master Plan of 1995, it was reported
that the PDW should be:
<3 lbs. 500-625 ft. range
Concealable Recoil of 9mm
Low magnetic signature Reliable in all weather (Grimes 34-5)
A later report in 1997 indicates:
Replace pistols/SMGs Selective fire
200 meter range Soft/hard target capability
Leap ahead technology
Users: those not armed with rifles, special operations, and law
enforcement (Steadman, Fighting 21-2).
Nick Steadman reported that the NATO European Staff target for the PDW
as of October 1999 was:
Weight: Handheld – 1 kg (700 gm. desired) Shoulder - 3 kg
Range: 100-200 meters Protected targets: 30-50 meters desired
Suitable while wearing armor, NBC suits and winter clothing (SADW).
According to Mark McFadden of the Picatinny Arsenal, the U.K. has
combined with NATO to develop a PDW replacing the 9mm. However, the U.S.
does not intend to replace its 9 mm systems (E-mail).
U.K. Summary of Requirements:
<.5 meters long Weight: loaded – 3 kg.
Defeat CRISAT protected targets: 150 meters
Off the shelf designs in calibers not used by UK armed forces and in
5.56 will be assessed (no 9mm?)
First batch in service 2003; follow up deliveries: 2004 and 2005
(MoD) (Wood).
In summary, the PDW requirements evolved from a replacement for the
.45 pistol to an entirely new ambitious and even radical firearms category.
VI Can the 9mm x 19 Fly?
Would the 9mm NATO make an effective PDW cartridge? Does it
have the effective range?
Theoretical Range:
Line of sight danger zone 350 meters (45 x 160 cm target)
Terminal Ballistics 630 (15 kg, 108 ft lbs)
Relative penetration (ball) 300 (steel helmet)
(Kjellgren 40-3)
Majority SMGs 100 – 200
Selective fire/long barrel 250-350 yds. (Nelson/Musgrave 6)
SMGs 150 meters (Dmitrieff 9)
SMGs – aimed/suppressive fire 200 (Ferguson 77)
Demonstrated Range:
.22RF handgun/no wind 500 yds. (full silhouette)
.38 target handguns 300 (turkey silhouette)
(Keith 109, 116)
SIG P210 pistol 100-200 (Thompson 71)
MP5 Semi-Auto 150 (Ayoob 7)
SMGs 100-150 meters
(Taylor, Sensible 23)
Marshal Arms Pistol 150 yds. (Balsavage)
It becomes apparent that the 9mm x 19 has more range potential
than most are aware of. Remember Elmer Keith using a .44 magnum
hitting a deer at 500-600 yards ( Seyfried 26).
VII Proposed Criteria for PDW
Height: 6 in/15.4cm Barrel: 7 in+/17.8 cm+
Length: <12 in/30cm Weight: 3 lbs/1.36 kg
Capacity: 25+ rds. Cyclic Rate: semi, burst, 600 rpm
Sights: Rifle, tritium dot Range: 150 meters
Stocks: Retractable, Detachable Ammo: 9mm, 221 fireball,
Steyr Flechette, ?
Features:
Ambidextrous controls Optional higher capacity
magazine
Flash suppressor/muzzle brake Suppressor
Picatinny rail for: sights Modular design
and accessories Tactical sling
Most important criteria:
Ammo selection must meet range, armor piercing and stopping
power requirements. Is the 9mm x 19 good enough? Will adopting nonstandard
or high tech ammo be enough of a tactical advantage over
the logistical disadvantage?
Sights: use assault rifle type of sight or the new tritium dot sights: Trijicon,
Ring Sight, Meprolight. These new types of sights will increase speed of
day/night target acquisition and range without needing batteries.
Stocks must be retractable, i.e., M3, H&K, etc. Also, detachable, folding,
sturdy and aid shooting.
The horizontal magazine makes the firearm more compact as contrasted
to standard magazines, which protrude from the firearm.
With the magazine placed horizontally above and parallel to the
barrel, it allows: compactness, high magazine capacity, able to fire from
the low-prone position, holsterable (Marshal Arms). Low barrel position
with the pistol handle forward makes repeat shots easier and to be fired
one-handed. The Hill SMG set the example for the HKG11, FNP90 and
Marshal Arms Assault Pistol.
Holsterable to be available to the user at all times.
Compact firepower, keep the PDW small. Do not make it into a larger
SMG or assault rifle.
...
There has been some debate on the criteria, need and tactical role
of the PDW. Let us examine this issue. It can be compared to the
submachine gun. The SMG provided firepower in a smaller package as a
companion arm to the World War II and post-war battle rifles. However,
with the miniaturization leading to the assault rifle, the role of the SMG has
supposedly declined.
Yet the SMG shoots on! Its major disadvantage is lack of range,
because of only firing pistol ammunition. This seeming disadvantage has
many benefits which are low: recoil, muzzle blast, climb, penetration, size,
weight, cost and training time (Taylor, Analysis 14). The Europeans, Israelis,
and Chinese have been more appreciative of the SMG and machine
pistol than the Americans.
The SMG will be more versatile than the handgun and the shotgun
in most tactical situations (Taylor, Sub 8). No one questions its OFFENSIVE
capabilities. Its use has been expanded from the military to police, SWAT
and others.
Handicaps of the SMG
But its size, weight and limited range handicaps its use, especially
with the arrive of the assault rifle and mini-assault rifle, such as: Colt XM177,
HK53, AKSU, etc.
II. Machine Pistol to the Rescue?
Even smaller than the SMG are the machine pistols. They have the
compact size and low weight desired for the PDW. But most have the
following problems: not controllable on full automatic fire, short ranged
and awkward with stock and/or attached holster ( Karwan 60-1). The
standard pistol design fares very poorly for full automatic fire. Only the
very expert can use them effectively in specialized circumstances
(Thompson, Mastering 66-7). The PDW must learn from the deficiencies of
the machine pistol.
IIII. Back to the Future
The Astra Model F. Hill SMG, Polish PM63, Colt SCAMP, Ingram, Davis
arm gun and Sarvis forearm gun all have characteristics that would lead
to a good PDW. That is to say, compact firepower.
IV. Changing Requirements and Present Criteria for PDW
In 1980 the American Rifleman reported that the Joint Service Small
Arms Program wanted to replace the 1911A1.45 pistol with a 9mm and
improve hit probability (Cowgill 82). Even today the Close Combat
Armament Center brochure of TACOM-ARDEC, Picatinny Arsenal, lists the
M9 as a PDW.
The requirements changed in 1993 from a simple handgun to:
Weight: <1.5 lbs. 100 meter range
Defeat body armor at 50 meters
Hand-free carry and to be worn on person 24 hours a day
Use by special operations troops ( Crist 102, 106).
According to the Army Small Arms Master Plan of 1995, it was
reported that the PDW should be:
<3 lbs. 500-625 ft. range
Concealable Recoil of 9mm
Low magnetic signature Reliable in all weather (Grimes 34-5)
A later report in 1997 indicates:
Replace pistols/SMGs Selective fire
200 meter range Soft/hard target capability
Leap ahead technology
Users: those not armed with rifles, special operations, and law
enforcement ( Steadman, Fighting 21-2).
Nick Steadman reported that the NATO European Staff target for
the PDW as of October 1999 was:
Weight: Handheld – 1 kg (700 gm. desired) Shoulder - 3 kg
Range: 100-200 meters Protected targets: 30-50 meters desired
Suitable while wearing armor, NBC suits and winter clothing (SADW).
According to Mark McFadden of the Picatinny Arsenal, the U.K. has
combined with NATO to develop a PDW replacing the 9mm. However,
the U.S. does not intend to replace its 9 mm systems (E-mail).
U.K. Summary of Requirements:
<.5 meters long Weight: loaded – 3 kg.
Defeat CRISAT protected targets: 150 meters
Off the shelf designs in calibers not used by UK armed forces and in
5.56 will be assessed (no 9mm?)
First batch in service 2003; follow up deliveries: 2004 and 2005
(MoD) (Wood).
In summary, the PDW requirements evolved from a replacement for
the .45 pistol to an entirely new ambitious and even radical firearms
category.
V. Design Problems
To keep a PDW compact, magazine capacity of 25 rds., range
requirements and body armor penetration are difficult to achieve.
Ammunition Selection is critical. To achieve high magazine
capacity, reducing the base size of the cartridge allows more rounds to
be stored in the magazine. Reducing the bullet size and weight also helps
with this problem, i.e., HK 4.6mm, FN 5.7mm.
Storing the magazine in the pistol handle does not allow enough
round capacity (25 rds.). Enlarging the pistol handle will make the firearm
difficult to use for those with less than large hands and with winter gloves.
Necking down standard pistol rounds allows the use of a standard pistol
design, i.e. .224Boz, .224 VOB. Note, as discussed previously in machine
pistols, this layout does not allow good control on full auto-fire.
Most of these attempts mean using cartridges of small size and thus
stopping power In the Korean War, the 7.62 Tokarev and .30 carbine
gained the reputation of having poor stopping power (Russ 143, 151, 212).
Increasing the base or overall size of the cartridge will increase the
length and size of the magazine, thus hurting the compactness of the
PDW, i.e., 224Boz, 5.56mm NATO.
Body Armor Penetration of CRISAT protected targets at 150 meters is
a formidable task for the PDW. CRISAT body armor consists of 1. mm
titanium with twenty layers of aramid (John, James 45). If this is an allimportant
demand, then the 9mm will not do. Then others will ask, why not
go to the 5.56 NATO cartridge.
Other possible candidates are: . 221 Fireball, 5.7 Johnson, .30
carbine, 9mm Win. Magnum, 9.2mm Russian. High technology
ammunition, such as the Steyr plastic cased flechette could be utilized.
Any new ammunition means increased cost and logistics.
Use of the standard magazine increases the size of the firearm. The
Czechoslovak and Uzi designs are the most space efficient. The new HK
4.6 mm PDW follows this layout. Still, in most designs the magazine
protrudes, hurting the compactness of the firearm.
Ammunition and Size will Determine the Design of the PDW.
VI Can the 9mm x 19 Fly?
Would the 9mm NATO make an effective PDW cartridge? Does it
have the effective range?
Theoretical Range:
Line of sight danger zone 350 meters (45 x 160 cm target)
Terminal Ballistics 630 (15 kg, 108 ft lbs)
Relative penetration (ball) 300 (steel helmet)
(Kjellgren 40-3)
Majority SMGs 100 – 200
Selective fire/long barrel 250-350 yds. (Nelson/Musgrave 6)
SMGs 150 meters (Dmitrieff 9)
SMGs – aimed/suppressive fire 200 (Ferguson 77)
Demonstrated Range:
.22RF handgun/no wind 500 yds. (full silhouette)
.38 target handguns 300 (turkey silhouette)
(Keith 109, 116)
SIG P210 pistol 100-200 (Thompson 71)
MP5 Semi-Auto 150 (Ayoob 7)
SMGs 100-150 meters
(Taylor, Sensible 23)
Marshal Arms Pistol 150 yds. (Balsavage)
It becomes apparent that the 9mm x 19 has more range potential
than most are aware of. Remember Elmer Keith using a .44 magnum
hitting a deer at 500-600 yards ( Seyfried 26).
Heavier Loading/Longer Barrel would improve the 9mm as Dmitrieff
suggests, which would put it into the carbine class (3). This is what the
Czechoslovaks did with the Models 24 and 26 in 7.62 Tok (Nelson and
Lockhoven 189). 9mm 5mg ammunition exists and +P, +P+ ammo are
used on a regular basis by law enforcement. Further comparisons are:
Thompson – Center pistol 9 in. barrel CCI Blazer 124 gr – 1350 Fps
Revolver 4 in barrel Rem. 357 125 – 1450
(Comus, 222, 4)
Walther P38 4-7/8 in Win. 115 – 1155
Marshal Arms Pistol 6.5 in Win. 115 – 1212
(Balsavage)
With a longer barrel, an increase of 15% velocity can be gained
(McLaughlin 67).
Better Sights equal to current assault rifles and/or high technology. Tritium
red dot type of sights would improve hit capability and range.
Body Armor can be overcome by using armor piercing ammunition at
reasonable ranges, although civilian police would not appreciate this.
Common ammo as used by the pistol is an advantage on the battlefield
(McLaughlin). Any new, non-standard ammunition increases logistical
supply problems. Note: the U.S. does not intend to change from the 9mm
system (McFadden). High tech ammunition not only increases logistics,
but also the time/cost for research and development. Will any nonstandard
ammunition provide a significant tactical advantage over the
9mm?
The 9mm x 19’s advantage is that it is the world’s most used military
pistol/SMG cartridge! Will the 9mm make an effective PDW? Only time,
range and armor piercing questions will tell.
VII Proposed Criteria for PDW
Height: 6 in/15.4cm Barrel: 7 in+/17.8 cm+
Length: <12 in/30cm Weight: 3 lbs/1.36 kg
Capacity: 25+ rds. Cyclic Rate: semi, burst, 600 rpm
Sights: Rifle, tritium dot Range: 150 meters
Stocks: Retractable, Detachable Ammo: 9mm, 221 fireball,
Steyr Flechette, ?
Features:
Ambidextrous controls Optional higher capacity
magazine
Flash suppressor/muzzle brake Suppressor
Picatinny rail for: sights Modular design
and accessories Tactical sling
Most important criteria:
Ammo selection must meet range, armor piercing and stopping
power requirements. Is the 9mm x 19 good enough? Will adopting nonstandard
or high tech ammo be enough of a tactical advantage over
the logistical disadvantage?
Sights: use assault rifle type of sight or the new tritium dot sights: Trijicon,
Ring Sight, Meprolight. These new types of sights will increase speed of
day/night target acquisition and range without needing batteries.
Stocks must be retractable, i.e., M3, H&K, etc. Also, detachable, folding,
sturdy and aid shooting.
The horizontal magazine makes the firearm more compact as contrasted
to standard magazines, which protrude from the firearm.
With the magazine placed horizontally above and parallel to the
barrel, it allows: compactness, high magazine capacity, able to fire from
the low-prone position, holsterable (Marshal Arms). Low barrel position
with the pistol handle forward makes repeat shots easier and to be fired
one-handed. The Hill SMG set the example for the HKG11, FNP90 and
Marshal Arms Assault Pistol.
Holsterable to be available to the user at all times.
Compact firepower, keep the PDW small. Do not make it into a larger
SMG or assault rifle.
VII (B) Slide comparing Uzi SMG to horizontal magazine firearm
VII (C) Slide comparing HKMP5 to Marshal Arms Assault Pistol
VIII Cautionary Note
PDW will be a highly desirable weapon for terrorists and criminals. It
offers concealed firepower, more range and magazine capacity than the
pistol and shotgun. More attention will be needed to secure these
firearms.
Yes, there are already other compact firearms out there. Also, we
all know that criminals follow all gun control legislation.
IX Need for and Tactical Role of the PDW
The PDW is not an assault rifle! For troops that need shorter rifles, arm
them with mini-assault rifles.
The pistol is regarded as a defensive weapon (Taylor, Analysis 75),
with a maximum effective range out to 25 meters for most personnel. Col.
Cooper states it takes a minimum of 500 rds. to train on (101). Also, the
instructors must be highly qualified. Its magazine capacity and range are
limited.
In 1963, Nelson’s The World’s SMG, stated, “Previous firearms for selfdefense,
such as pistols, are no longer sufficient for the crews of heavy
weapons, or for the members of small specialized infantry or patrol units.”
(20).
Dmitrieff echoed the above by saying, “The need for a light and
compact arm, more accurate than a pistol, has been felt by soldiers since
the introduction of firearms.” (5).
Both have encouraged the development and use of the SMG.
Chuck Taylor has pointed out that the stocked machine pistol and the
SMG are more effective than the pistol (Machine 50). Even though the
assault rifle has replaced the SMG in a larger role, both are too large for
PDW applications.
Tactical Mission Need: Personal Defense Weapon to provide more
firepower and range than a pistol, yet is smaller than the standard SMG,
carbine, and assault rifle. Required for crew-served weapons personnel,
wheel/armor/aircraft crews, combat leaders, special operations, police,
SWAT, etc. Holsterable/concealable. One-handed firing while: driving,
boarding ships, climbing, rappelling, wounded, etc. or those normally
issued with a pistol.
The PDW is controllable on full-automatic, has more range,
magazine capacity and is easier to train on than the pistol. Without a
stock, it is basically a defensive compact weapon. (Note: some slings aid
in firing). When a tanker has to sweep his vehicle or unhorse it – he will
have a far more capable PDW than a pistol!
Can the PDW Be Offensive?
Yes, with a well-designed stock that aids shooting. Detachable,
retractable, aid in compactness.
Goods sights equal to rifle or high tech tritium ret dot sights help in
target acquisition and range. Both stocks and sights give the PDW full use
of its potential.
Combined with other features previously mentioned, all combine to
give the PDW a hit capability to 150 meters and equal to most SMG in
combat effectiveness. The PDW could be compared to a miniaturized
SMG but with longer range and accuracy potential.
Its niche is compact firepower. With the recent emphasis on Military
Operations in Urban Terrain and Close Quarters Battle, the need for it is
even stronger.
Let us change the Personal Defense Weapon’s name to the
“Assault Pistol” to emphasize its size and offensive potential.
X Errors and Recommended Reading
All errors, opinions and conclusions are solely the author’s. The hope
of this presentation is to further debate, and in so doing, benefit the soldier
and police officer.
Recommended Reading
Historical:
World’s Submachine Guns, Vol. I, by Nelson, Lockhoven.
World’s Machine Pistols and Submachine Guns, Vol IIA, by Nelson,
Musgrave.
Shooting Impression:
Karward, Charles
Thompson, Leroy
both in leading firearms magazines.
Up-to-Date Info:
Small Arms Review: Smallarmsreview@aol.com
Steadman, Nick: Small Arms Data by Wire (SADW)
SADW @compuserve.com and leading firearms magazines.
Tactical Use of:
Books and articles by Taylor, Chuck:
The Combat Shotgun and Submachine Gun: A Special Weapons Analysis
SWAT magazine
Tactical Shooter
WORKS CITED
Ayoob, Massad. “Full Auto Firing Techniques.” Full Auto. Vol. 1. 1984.
Balsavage, Walter. “9mm x 19 Tests by author.”
Close Combat Armaments Center, U.S. Army Armament Research,
Development and Engineering Center. Picatinny Arsenal.
Cowgill, James. “Small Arms for Tomorrow’s Battlefield.” American
Rifleman. Jun. 1980.
Comus, Steve.The Gun Digest Book of 9mm Handguns. 2nd Ed. Northbrook:
DBI Books. MCMXCIII.
Cooper, Jeff. Cooper on Handguns. Los Angeles: Peterson. 1974.
Crimes, Vincent. “Small Arms Plan Yields Results, New Contracts.” National
Defense. Jul./Aug. 1995.
Crist, Stanley. “The Small Arms Master Plan.” The Gun Digest, 1993. 47th Ed.
Ken Warner. Northbrook: DBI Books. 1992.
Dmitrieff, G. Submachine Gun Designer’s Handbook. Cornville: Desert.
1981.
Ferguson, Tom. Modern Law Enforcement Weapons and Tactics. 2nd Ed.
Northbrook: DBI Books. MCMXCI.
John, Jeff and James, Gary. “World’s Hottest Pistol Round.” Guns and
Ammo: High Tech Firearms. 1999.
Karwan, Charles. “Spitfires.” American Handgunner: Combat 1999
Annual. 1999.
Keith, Elmer. Sixguns by Keith. Harrisburg: Stackpole. 1961.
McFadden, Mark J. E-mail to author. 14 Apr 2000.
McLoughlin, Chris. “SMGs, ARs and SGNs: Law Enforcement’s Choice.”
Small Arms Review. Jul. 1999.
Nelson, Thomas and Lockhoven, Hans. The World’s Submachine Guns
(Machine Pistols) Vol. I. Cologne: International Small Arms. 1964.
---. and Musgrave, Daniel. The World’s Machine Pistols and Submachine
Guns, Vol. IIA. Hong Kong: Chelsas Ltd. 1980.
Russ, Martin. Breakout: The Chosin Reservoir Campaign, Korea, 1950.
New York: Fromn, 1999.
Seyfried, Ross. “Long-Range Handgunning.” Handguns Annual. 1999.
Steadman, Nick. “Future Shot: More Bang for Your Buck (Rogers).”
Fighting Firearms. Spring 1997.
---. Small Arms Data by Wire (SADW). #29. Oct. 1999.
SADW@compuserve.com.
Taylor, Chuck. The Combat Shotgun and SMG: A Special Weapons
Analysis. Boulder: Paladin Press. 1985.
---. “Machine Pistols.” Guns Illustrated: 1968. Vernon Hills: DBI Books. 1967.
---. “The Safe, Sane and Sensible SMG.” SWAT. April 1982.
---. “The Submachine Gun Today.” Oct. 1999.
Thompson, Leroy. “Swiss Perfection for Y2K.” Handguns. Oct. 1999.
---. “Mastering the Machine Pistol.” Combat Handguns. Dec. 1999.
U.K. “Summary of Requirements: PDW.” MoD Contracts Bulletin
26 Jan. 2000.
Wood, N.M. E-mail “Future Possible Purchase DCC1/031-Personal Defense
Weapon.” Defence Procurement Agency, 15 Aug. 2000 to author.
IV. Changing Requirements and Present Criteria for PDW
In 1980 the American Rifleman reported that the Joint Service Small Arms
Program wanted to replace the 1911A1.45 pistol with a 9mm and improve hit
probability (Cowgill 82). Even today the Close Combat Armament Center
brochure of TACOM-ARDEC, Picatinny Arsenal, lists the M9 as a PDW.
The requirements changed in 1993 from a simple handgun to:
Weight: <1.5 lbs. 100 meter range
Defeat body armor at 50 meters
Hand-free carry and to be worn on person 24 hours a day
Use by special operations troops (Crist 102, 106).
According to the Army Small Arms Master Plan of 1995, it was reported
that the PDW should be:
<3 lbs. 500-625 ft. range
Concealable Recoil of 9mm
Low magnetic signature Reliable in all weather (Grimes 34-5)
A later report in 1997 indicates:
Replace pistols/SMGs Selective fire
200 meter range Soft/hard target capability
Leap ahead technology
Users: those not armed with rifles, special operations, and law
enforcement (Steadman, Fighting 21-2).
Nick Steadman reported that the NATO European Staff target for the PDW
as of October 1999 was:
Weight: Handheld – 1 kg (700 gm. desired) Shoulder - 3 kg
Range: 100-200 meters Protected targets: 30-50 meters desired
Suitable while wearing armor, NBC suits and winter clothing (SADW).
According to Mark McFadden of the Picatinny Arsenal, the U.K. has
combined with NATO to develop a PDW replacing the 9mm. However, the U.S.
does not intend to replace its 9 mm systems (E-mail).
U.K. Summary of Requirements:
<.5 meters long Weight: loaded – 3 kg.
Defeat CRISAT protected targets: 150 meters
Off the shelf designs in calibers not used by UK armed forces and in
5.56 will be assessed (no 9mm?)
First batch in service 2003; follow up deliveries: 2004 and 2005
(MoD) (Wood).
In summary, the PDW requirements evolved from a replacement for the
.45 pistol to an entirely new ambitious and even radical firearms category.
VI Can the 9mm x 19 Fly?
Would the 9mm NATO make an effective PDW cartridge? Does it
have the effective range?
Theoretical Range:
Line of sight danger zone 350 meters (45 x 160 cm target)
Terminal Ballistics 630 (15 kg, 108 ft lbs)
Relative penetration (ball) 300 (steel helmet)
(Kjellgren 40-3)
Majority SMGs 100 – 200
Selective fire/long barrel 250-350 yds. (Nelson/Musgrave 6)
SMGs 150 meters (Dmitrieff 9)
SMGs – aimed/suppressive fire 200 (Ferguson 77)
Demonstrated Range:
.22RF handgun/no wind 500 yds. (full silhouette)
.38 target handguns 300 (turkey silhouette)
(Keith 109, 116)
SIG P210 pistol 100-200 (Thompson 71)
MP5 Semi-Auto 150 (Ayoob 7)
SMGs 100-150 meters
(Taylor, Sensible 23)
Marshal Arms Pistol 150 yds. (Balsavage)
It becomes apparent that the 9mm x 19 has more range potential
than most are aware of. Remember Elmer Keith using a .44 magnum
hitting a deer at 500-600 yards ( Seyfried 26).
VII Proposed Criteria for PDW
Height: 6 in/15.4cm Barrel: 7 in+/17.8 cm+
Length: <12 in/30cm Weight: 3 lbs/1.36 kg
Capacity: 25+ rds. Cyclic Rate: semi, burst, 600 rpm
Sights: Rifle, tritium dot Range: 150 meters
Stocks: Retractable, Detachable Ammo: 9mm, 221 fireball,
Steyr Flechette, ?
Features:
Ambidextrous controls Optional higher capacity
magazine
Flash suppressor/muzzle brake Suppressor
Picatinny rail for: sights Modular design
and accessories Tactical sling
Most important criteria:
Ammo selection must meet range, armor piercing and stopping
power requirements. Is the 9mm x 19 good enough? Will adopting nonstandard
or high tech ammo be enough of a tactical advantage over
the logistical disadvantage?
Sights: use assault rifle type of sight or the new tritium dot sights: Trijicon,
Ring Sight, Meprolight. These new types of sights will increase speed of
day/night target acquisition and range without needing batteries.
Stocks must be retractable, i.e., M3, H&K, etc. Also, detachable, folding,
sturdy and aid shooting.
The horizontal magazine makes the firearm more compact as contrasted
to standard magazines, which protrude from the firearm.
With the magazine placed horizontally above and parallel to the
barrel, it allows: compactness, high magazine capacity, able to fire from
the low-prone position, holsterable (Marshal Arms). Low barrel position
with the pistol handle forward makes repeat shots easier and to be fired
one-handed. The Hill SMG set the example for the HKG11, FNP90 and
Marshal Arms Assault Pistol.
Holsterable to be available to the user at all times.
Compact firepower, keep the PDW small. Do not make it into a larger
SMG or assault rifle.
...
Thompson machine billet receivers (and FN partts required)
Posted by: streetrod
Posted: Fri Oct 17, 2008 2:31 pm Post subject: Thompson machine billet receivers
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Well, I should have mine any day now. Will be cool to see. I also found all the required parts for the receiver to make it complete. The image shows the part numbers for the 3 springs, the charging handle and the take down button. With these pieces and his receiver, all thats needed for a complete upper is the barrel assembly. The operating handle studs are not needed. They came with the handle
FN contact number for the parts are 1-800-635-1321
1x Support Barrel Lock Spring BPS90000001 $1.25
1x Support Barrel Lock BPS90000002 $15.75
1x Operating Handle Return Spring BPS90000003 $3.75
1x Operating Handle BPS90000004 $48.00
2x Operating Handle Stud BPS90000005 $1.25 ea.
1x Barrel Return Spring BPS90000006 $1.25 ea.
Posted: Fri Oct 17, 2008 2:31 pm Post subject: Thompson machine billet receivers
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Well, I should have mine any day now. Will be cool to see. I also found all the required parts for the receiver to make it complete. The image shows the part numbers for the 3 springs, the charging handle and the take down button. With these pieces and his receiver, all thats needed for a complete upper is the barrel assembly. The operating handle studs are not needed. They came with the handle
FN contact number for the parts are 1-800-635-1321
1x Support Barrel Lock Spring BPS90000001 $1.25
1x Support Barrel Lock BPS90000002 $15.75
1x Operating Handle Return Spring BPS90000003 $3.75
1x Operating Handle BPS90000004 $48.00
2x Operating Handle Stud BPS90000005 $1.25 ea.
1x Barrel Return Spring BPS90000006 $1.25 ea.
I. Personal Defense Weapon: Only for Defense?
I. Personal Defense Weapon: Only for Defense?
There has been some debate on the criteria, need and tactical role
of the PDW. Let us examine this issue. It can be compared to the
submachine gun. The SMG provided firepower in a smaller package as a
companion arm to the World War II and post-war battle rifles. However,
with the miniaturization leading to the assault rifle, the role of the SMG has
supposedly declined.
Yet the SMG shoots on! Its major disadvantage is lack of range,
because of only firing pistol ammunition. This seeming disadvantage has
many benefits which are low: recoil, muzzle blast, climb, penetration, size,
weight, cost and training time (Taylor, Analysis 14). The Europeans, Israelis,
and Chinese have been more appreciative of the SMG and machine
pistol than the Americans.
The SMG will be more versatile than the handgun and the shotgun
in most tactical situations (Taylor, Sub 8). No one questions its OFFENSIVE
capabilities. Its use has been expanded from the military to police, SWAT
and others.
Handicaps of the SMG
But its size, weight and limited range handicaps its use, especially
with the arrive of the assault rifle and mini-assault rifle, such as: Colt XM177,
HK53, AKSU, etc.
II. Machine Pistol to the Rescue?
Even smaller than the SMG are the machine pistols. They have the
compact size and low weight desired for the PDW. But most have the
following problems: not controllable on full automatic fire, short ranged
and awkward with stock and/or attached holster ( Karwan 60-1). The
standard pistol design fares very poorly for full automatic fire. Only the
very expert can use them effectively in specialized circumstances
(Thompson, Mastering 66-7). The PDW must learn from the deficiencies of
the machine pistol.
IIII. Back to the Future
The Astra Model F. Hill SMG, Polish PM63, Colt SCAMP, Ingram, Davis
arm gun and Sarvis forearm gun all have characteristics that would lead
to a good PDW. That is to say, compact firepower.
IV. Changing Requirements and Present Criteria for PDW
In 1980 the American Rifleman reported that the Joint Service Small
Arms Program wanted to replace the 1911A1.45 pistol with a 9mm and
improve hit probability (Cowgill 82). Even today the Close Combat
Armament Center brochure of TACOM-ARDEC, Picatinny Arsenal, lists the
M9 as a PDW.
The requirements changed in 1993 from a simple handgun to:
Weight: <1 .5="" 100="" br="" lbs.="" meter="" range="">Defeat body armor at 50 meters
Hand-free carry and to be worn on person 24 hours a day
Use by special operations troops ( Crist 102, 106).
According to the Army Small Arms Master Plan of 1995, it was
reported that the PDW should be:
<3 500-625="" br="" ft.="" lbs.="" range="">Concealable Recoil of 9mm
Low magnetic signature Reliable in all weather (Grimes 34-5)
A later report in 1997 indicates:
Replace pistols/SMGs Selective fire
200 meter range Soft/hard target capability
Leap ahead technology
Users: those not armed with rifles, special operations, and law
enforcement ( Steadman, Fighting 21-2).
Nick Steadman reported that the NATO European Staff target for
the PDW as of October 1999 was:
Weight: Handheld – 1 kg (700 gm. desired) Shoulder - 3 kg
Range: 100-200 meters Protected targets: 30-50 meters desired
Suitable while wearing armor, NBC suits and winter clothing (SADW).
According to Mark McFadden of the Picatinny Arsenal, the U.K. has
combined with NATO to develop a PDW replacing the 9mm. However,
the U.S. does not intend to replace its 9 mm systems (E-mail).
U.K. Summary of Requirements:
<.5 meters long Weight: loaded – 3 kg.
Defeat CRISAT protected targets: 150 meters
Off the shelf designs in calibers not used by UK armed forces and in
5.56 will be assessed (no 9mm?)
First batch in service 2003; follow up deliveries: 2004 and 2005
(MoD) (Wood).
In summary, the PDW requirements evolved from a replacement for
the .45 pistol to an entirely new ambitious and even radical firearms
category.
V. Design Problems
To keep a PDW compact, magazine capacity of 25 rds., range
requirements and body armor penetration are difficult to achieve.
Ammunition Selection is critical. To achieve high magazine
capacity, reducing the base size of the cartridge allows more rounds to
be stored in the magazine. Reducing the bullet size and weight also helps
with this problem, i.e., HK 4.6mm, FN 5.7mm.
Storing the magazine in the pistol handle does not allow enough
round capacity (25 rds.). Enlarging the pistol handle will make the firearm
difficult to use for those with less than large hands and with winter gloves.
Necking down standard pistol rounds allows the use of a standard pistol
design, i.e. .224Boz, .224 VOB. Note, as discussed previously in machine
pistols, this layout does not allow good control on full auto-fire.
Most of these attempts mean using cartridges of small size and thus
stopping power In the Korean War, the 7.62 Tokarev and .30 carbine
gained the reputation of having poor stopping power (Russ 143, 151, 212).
Increasing the base or overall size of the cartridge will increase the
length and size of the magazine, thus hurting the compactness of the
PDW, i.e., 224Boz, 5.56mm NATO.
Body Armor Penetration of CRISAT protected targets at 150 meters is
a formidable task for the PDW. CRISAT body armor consists of 1. mm
titanium with twenty layers of aramid (John, James 45). If this is an allimportant
demand, then the 9mm will not do. Then others will ask, why not
go to the 5.56 NATO cartridge.
Other possible candidates are: . 221 Fireball, 5.7 Johnson, .30
carbine, 9mm Win. Magnum, 9.2mm Russian. High technology
ammunition, such as the Steyr plastic cased flechette could be utilized.
Any new ammunition means increased cost and logistics.
Use of the standard magazine increases the size of the firearm. The
Czechoslovak and Uzi designs are the most space efficient. The new HK
4.6 mm PDW follows this layout. Still, in most designs the magazine
protrudes, hurting the compactness of the firearm.
Ammunition and Size will Determine the Design of the PDW.
VI Can the 9mm x 19 Fly?
Would the 9mm NATO make an effective PDW cartridge? Does it
have the effective range?
Theoretical Range:
Line of sight danger zone 350 meters (45 x 160 cm target)
Terminal Ballistics 630 (15 kg, 108 ft lbs)
Relative penetration (ball) 300 (steel helmet)
(Kjellgren 40-3)
Majority SMGs 100 – 200
Selective fire/long barrel 250-350 yds. (Nelson/Musgrave 6)
SMGs 150 meters (Dmitrieff 9)
SMGs – aimed/suppressive fire 200 (Ferguson 77)
Demonstrated Range:
.22RF handgun/no wind 500 yds. (full silhouette)
.38 target handguns 300 (turkey silhouette)
(Keith 109, 116)
SIG P210 pistol 100-200 (Thompson 71)
MP5 Semi-Auto 150 (Ayoob 7)
SMGs 100-150 meters
(Taylor, Sensible 23)
Marshal Arms Pistol 150 yds. (Balsavage)
It becomes apparent that the 9mm x 19 has more range potential
than most are aware of. Remember Elmer Keith using a .44 magnum
hitting a deer at 500-600 yards ( Seyfried 26).
Heavier Loading/Longer Barrel would improve the 9mm as Dmitrieff
suggests, which would put it into the carbine class (3). This is what the
Czechoslovaks did with the Models 24 and 26 in 7.62 Tok (Nelson and
Lockhoven 189). 9mm 5mg ammunition exists and +P, +P+ ammo are
used on a regular basis by law enforcement. Further comparisons are:
Thompson – Center pistol 9 in. barrel CCI Blazer 124 gr – 1350 Fps
Revolver 4 in barrel Rem. 357 125 – 1450
(Comus, 222, 4)
Walther P38 4-7/8 in Win. 115 – 1155
Marshal Arms Pistol 6.5 in Win. 115 – 1212
(Balsavage)
With a longer barrel, an increase of 15% velocity can be gained
(McLaughlin 67).
Better Sights equal to current assault rifles and/or high technology. Tritium
red dot type of sights would improve hit capability and range.
Body Armor can be overcome by using armor piercing ammunition at
reasonable ranges, although civilian police would not appreciate this.
Common ammo as used by the pistol is an advantage on the battlefield
(McLaughlin). Any new, non-standard ammunition increases logistical
supply problems. Note: the U.S. does not intend to change from the 9mm
system (McFadden). High tech ammunition not only increases logistics,
but also the time/cost for research and development. Will any nonstandard
ammunition provide a significant tactical advantage over the
9mm?
The 9mm x 19’s advantage is that it is the world’s most used military
pistol/SMG cartridge! Will the 9mm make an effective PDW? Only time,
range and armor piercing questions will tell.
VII Proposed Criteria for PDW
Height: 6 in/15.4cm Barrel: 7 in+/17.8 cm+
Length: <12 3="" br="" cm="" in="" kg="" lbs="" weight:="">Capacity: 25+ rds. Cyclic Rate: semi, burst, 600 rpm
Sights: Rifle, tritium dot Range: 150 meters
Stocks: Retractable, Detachable Ammo: 9mm, 221 fireball,
Steyr Flechette, ?
Features:
Ambidextrous controls Optional higher capacity
magazine
Flash suppressor/muzzle brake Suppressor
Picatinny rail for: sights Modular design
and accessories Tactical sling
Most important criteria:
Ammo selection must meet range, armor piercing and stopping
power requirements. Is the 9mm x 19 good enough? Will adopting nonstandard
or high tech ammo be enough of a tactical advantage over
the logistical disadvantage?
Sights: use assault rifle type of sight or the new tritium dot sights: Trijicon,
Ring Sight, Meprolight. These new types of sights will increase speed of
day/night target acquisition and range without needing batteries.
Stocks must be retractable, i.e., M3, H&K, etc. Also, detachable, folding,
sturdy and aid shooting.
The horizontal magazine makes the firearm more compact as contrasted
to standard magazines, which protrude from the firearm.
With the magazine placed horizontally above and parallel to the
barrel, it allows: compactness, high magazine capacity, able to fire from
the low-prone position, holsterable (Marshal Arms). Low barrel position
with the pistol handle forward makes repeat shots easier and to be fired
one-handed. The Hill SMG set the example for the HKG11, FNP90 and
Marshal Arms Assault Pistol.
Holsterable to be available to the user at all times.
Compact firepower, keep the PDW small. Do not make it into a larger
SMG or assault rifle.
VII (B) Slide comparing Uzi SMG to horizontal magazine firearm
VII (C) Slide comparing HKMP5 to Marshal Arms Assault Pistol
VIII Cautionary Note
PDW will be a highly desirable weapon for terrorists and criminals. It
offers concealed firepower, more range and magazine capacity than the
pistol and shotgun. More attention will be needed to secure these
firearms.
Yes, there are already other compact firearms out there. Also, we
all know that criminals follow all gun control legislation.
IX Need for and Tactical Role of the PDW
The PDW is not an assault rifle! For troops that need shorter rifles, arm
them with mini-assault rifles.
The pistol is regarded as a defensive weapon (Taylor, Analysis 75),
with a maximum effective range out to 25 meters for most personnel. Col.
Cooper states it takes a minimum of 500 rds. to train on (101). Also, the
instructors must be highly qualified. Its magazine capacity and range are
limited.
In 1963, Nelson’s The World’s SMG, stated, “Previous firearms for selfdefense,
such as pistols, are no longer sufficient for the crews of heavy
weapons, or for the members of small specialized infantry or patrol units.”
(20).
Dmitrieff echoed the above by saying, “The need for a light and
compact arm, more accurate than a pistol, has been felt by soldiers since
the introduction of firearms.” (5).
Both have encouraged the development and use of the SMG.
Chuck Taylor has pointed out that the stocked machine pistol and the
SMG are more effective than the pistol (Machine 50). Even though the
assault rifle has replaced the SMG in a larger role, both are too large for
PDW applications.
Tactical Mission Need: Personal Defense Weapon to provide more
firepower and range than a pistol, yet is smaller than the standard SMG,
carbine, and assault rifle. Required for crew-served weapons personnel,
wheel/armor/aircraft crews, combat leaders, special operations, police,
SWAT, etc. Holsterable/concealable. One-handed firing while: driving,
boarding ships, climbing, rappelling, wounded, etc. or those normally
issued with a pistol.
The PDW is controllable on full-automatic, has more range,
magazine capacity and is easier to train on than the pistol. Without a
stock, it is basically a defensive compact weapon. (Note: some slings aid
in firing). When a tanker has to sweep his vehicle or unhorse it – he will
have a far more capable PDW than a pistol!
Can the PDW Be Offensive?
Yes, with a well-designed stock that aids shooting. Detachable,
retractable, aid in compactness.
Goods sights equal to rifle or high tech tritium ret dot sights help in
target acquisition and range. Both stocks and sights give the PDW full use
of its potential.
Combined with other features previously mentioned, all combine to
give the PDW a hit capability to 150 meters and equal to most SMG in
combat effectiveness. The PDW could be compared to a miniaturized
SMG but with longer range and accuracy potential.
Its niche is compact firepower. With the recent emphasis on Military
Operations in Urban Terrain and Close Quarters Battle, the need for it is
even stronger.
Let us change the Personal Defense Weapon’s name to the
“Assault Pistol” to emphasize its size and offensive potential.
X Errors and Recommended Reading
All errors, opinions and conclusions are solely the author’s. The hope
of this presentation is to further debate, and in so doing, benefit the soldier
and police officer.
Recommended Reading
Historical:
World’s Submachine Guns, Vol. I, by Nelson, Lockhoven.
World’s Machine Pistols and Submachine Guns, Vol IIA, by Nelson,
Musgrave.
Shooting Impression:
Karward, Charles
Thompson, Leroy
both in leading firearms magazines.
Up-to-Date Info:
Small Arms Review: Smallarmsreview@aol.com
Steadman, Nick: Small Arms Data by Wire (SADW)
SADW @compuserve.com and leading firearms magazines.
Tactical Use of:
Books and articles by Taylor, Chuck:
The Combat Shotgun and Submachine Gun: A Special Weapons Analysis
SWAT magazine
Tactical Shooter
WORKS CITED
Ayoob, Massad. “Full Auto Firing Techniques.” Full Auto. Vol. 1. 1984.
Balsavage, Walter. “9mm x 19 Tests by author.”
Close Combat Armaments Center, U.S. Army Armament Research,
Development and Engineering Center. Picatinny Arsenal.
Cowgill, James. “Small Arms for Tomorrow’s Battlefield.” American
Rifleman. Jun. 1980.
Comus, Steve.The Gun Digest Book of 9mm Handguns. 2nd Ed. Northbrook:
DBI Books. MCMXCIII.
Cooper, Jeff. Cooper on Handguns. Los Angeles: Peterson. 1974.
Crimes, Vincent. “Small Arms Plan Yields Results, New Contracts.” National
Defense. Jul./Aug. 1995.
Crist, Stanley. “The Small Arms Master Plan.” The Gun Digest, 1993. 47th Ed.
Ken Warner. Northbrook: DBI Books. 1992.
Dmitrieff, G. Submachine Gun Designer’s Handbook. Cornville: Desert.
1981.
Ferguson, Tom. Modern Law Enforcement Weapons and Tactics. 2nd Ed.
Northbrook: DBI Books. MCMXCI.
John, Jeff and James, Gary. “World’s Hottest Pistol Round.” Guns and
Ammo: High Tech Firearms. 1999.
Karwan, Charles. “Spitfires.” American Handgunner: Combat 1999
Annual. 1999.
Keith, Elmer. Sixguns by Keith. Harrisburg: Stackpole. 1961.
McFadden, Mark J. E-mail to author. 14 Apr 2000.
McLoughlin, Chris. “SMGs, ARs and SGNs: Law Enforcement’s Choice.”
Small Arms Review. Jul. 1999.
Nelson, Thomas and Lockhoven, Hans. The World’s Submachine Guns
(Machine Pistols) Vol. I. Cologne: International Small Arms. 1964.
---. and Musgrave, Daniel. The World’s Machine Pistols and Submachine
Guns, Vol. IIA. Hong Kong: Chelsas Ltd. 1980.
Russ, Martin. Breakout: The Chosin Reservoir Campaign, Korea, 1950.
New York: Fromn, 1999.
Seyfried, Ross. “Long-Range Handgunning.” Handguns Annual. 1999.
Steadman, Nick. “Future Shot: More Bang for Your Buck (Rogers).”
Fighting Firearms. Spring 1997.
---. Small Arms Data by Wire (SADW). #29. Oct. 1999.
SADW@compuserve.com.
Taylor, Chuck. The Combat Shotgun and SMG: A Special Weapons
Analysis. Boulder: Paladin Press. 1985.
---. “Machine Pistols.” Guns Illustrated: 1968. Vernon Hills: DBI Books. 1967.
---. “The Safe, Sane and Sensible SMG.” SWAT. April 1982.
---. “The Submachine Gun Today.” Oct. 1999.
Thompson, Leroy. “Swiss Perfection for Y2K.” Handguns. Oct. 1999.
---. “Mastering the Machine Pistol.” Combat Handguns. Dec. 1999.
U.K. “Summary of Requirements: PDW.” MoD Contracts Bulletin
26 Jan. 2000.
Wood, N.M. E-mail “Future Possible Purchase DCC1/031-Personal Defense
Weapon.” Defence Procurement Agency, 15 Aug. 2000 to author.
IV. Changing Requirements and Present Criteria for PDW
In 1980 the American Rifleman reported that the Joint Service Small Arms
Program wanted to replace the 1911A1.45 pistol with a 9mm and improve hit
probability (Cowgill 82). Even today the Close Combat Armament Center
brochure of TACOM-ARDEC, Picatinny Arsenal, lists the M9 as a PDW.
The requirements changed in 1993 from a simple handgun to:
Weight: <1 .5="" 100="" br="" lbs.="" meter="" range="">Defeat body armor at 50 meters
Hand-free carry and to be worn on person 24 hours a day
Use by special operations troops (Crist 102, 106).
According to the Army Small Arms Master Plan of 1995, it was reported
that the PDW should be:
<3 500-625="" br="" ft.="" lbs.="" range="">Concealable Recoil of 9mm
Low magnetic signature Reliable in all weather (Grimes 34-5)
A later report in 1997 indicates:
Replace pistols/SMGs Selective fire
200 meter range Soft/hard target capability
Leap ahead technology
Users: those not armed with rifles, special operations, and law
enforcement (Steadman, Fighting 21-2).
Nick Steadman reported that the NATO European Staff target for the PDW
as of October 1999 was:
Weight: Handheld – 1 kg (700 gm. desired) Shoulder - 3 kg
Range: 100-200 meters Protected targets: 30-50 meters desired
Suitable while wearing armor, NBC suits and winter clothing (SADW).
According to Mark McFadden of the Picatinny Arsenal, the U.K. has
combined with NATO to develop a PDW replacing the 9mm. However, the U.S.
does not intend to replace its 9 mm systems (E-mail).
U.K. Summary of Requirements:
<.5 meters long Weight: loaded – 3 kg.
Defeat CRISAT protected targets: 150 meters
Off the shelf designs in calibers not used by UK armed forces and in
5.56 will be assessed (no 9mm?)
First batch in service 2003; follow up deliveries: 2004 and 2005
(MoD) (Wood).
In summary, the PDW requirements evolved from a replacement for the
.45 pistol to an entirely new ambitious and even radical firearms category.
VI Can the 9mm x 19 Fly?
Would the 9mm NATO make an effective PDW cartridge? Does it
have the effective range?
Theoretical Range:
Line of sight danger zone 350 meters (45 x 160 cm target)
Terminal Ballistics 630 (15 kg, 108 ft lbs)
Relative penetration (ball) 300 (steel helmet)
(Kjellgren 40-3)
Majority SMGs 100 – 200
Selective fire/long barrel 250-350 yds. (Nelson/Musgrave 6)
SMGs 150 meters (Dmitrieff 9)
SMGs – aimed/suppressive fire 200 (Ferguson 77)
Demonstrated Range:
.22RF handgun/no wind 500 yds. (full silhouette)
.38 target handguns 300 (turkey silhouette)
(Keith 109, 116)
SIG P210 pistol 100-200 (Thompson 71)
MP5 Semi-Auto 150 (Ayoob 7)
SMGs 100-150 meters
(Taylor, Sensible 23)
Marshal Arms Pistol 150 yds. (Balsavage)
It becomes apparent that the 9mm x 19 has more range potential
than most are aware of. Remember Elmer Keith using a .44 magnum
hitting a deer at 500-600 yards ( Seyfried 26).
VII Proposed Criteria for PDW
Height: 6 in/15.4cm Barrel: 7 in+/17.8 cm+
Length: <12 3="" br="" cm="" in="" kg="" lbs="" weight:="">Capacity: 25+ rds. Cyclic Rate: semi, burst, 600 rpm
Sights: Rifle, tritium dot Range: 150 meters
Stocks: Retractable, Detachable Ammo: 9mm, 221 fireball,
Steyr Flechette, ?
Features:
Ambidextrous controls Optional higher capacity
magazine
Flash suppressor/muzzle brake Suppressor
Picatinny rail for: sights Modular design
and accessories Tactical sling
Most important criteria:
Ammo selection must meet range, armor piercing and stopping
power requirements. Is the 9mm x 19 good enough? Will adopting nonstandard
or high tech ammo be enough of a tactical advantage over
the logistical disadvantage?
Sights: use assault rifle type of sight or the new tritium dot sights: Trijicon,
Ring Sight, Meprolight. These new types of sights will increase speed of
day/night target acquisition and range without needing batteries.
Stocks must be retractable, i.e., M3, H&K, etc. Also, detachable, folding,
sturdy and aid shooting.
The horizontal magazine makes the firearm more compact as contrasted
to standard magazines, which protrude from the firearm.
With the magazine placed horizontally above and parallel to the
barrel, it allows: compactness, high magazine capacity, able to fire from
the low-prone position, holsterable (Marshal Arms). Low barrel position
with the pistol handle forward makes repeat shots easier and to be fired
one-handed. The Hill SMG set the example for the HKG11, FNP90 and
Marshal Arms Assault Pistol.
Holsterable to be available to the user at all times.
Compact firepower, keep the PDW small. Do not make it into a larger
SMG or assault rifle.
...
There has been some debate on the criteria, need and tactical role
of the PDW. Let us examine this issue. It can be compared to the
submachine gun. The SMG provided firepower in a smaller package as a
companion arm to the World War II and post-war battle rifles. However,
with the miniaturization leading to the assault rifle, the role of the SMG has
supposedly declined.
Yet the SMG shoots on! Its major disadvantage is lack of range,
because of only firing pistol ammunition. This seeming disadvantage has
many benefits which are low: recoil, muzzle blast, climb, penetration, size,
weight, cost and training time (Taylor, Analysis 14). The Europeans, Israelis,
and Chinese have been more appreciative of the SMG and machine
pistol than the Americans.
The SMG will be more versatile than the handgun and the shotgun
in most tactical situations (Taylor, Sub 8). No one questions its OFFENSIVE
capabilities. Its use has been expanded from the military to police, SWAT
and others.
Handicaps of the SMG
But its size, weight and limited range handicaps its use, especially
with the arrive of the assault rifle and mini-assault rifle, such as: Colt XM177,
HK53, AKSU, etc.
II. Machine Pistol to the Rescue?
Even smaller than the SMG are the machine pistols. They have the
compact size and low weight desired for the PDW. But most have the
following problems: not controllable on full automatic fire, short ranged
and awkward with stock and/or attached holster ( Karwan 60-1). The
standard pistol design fares very poorly for full automatic fire. Only the
very expert can use them effectively in specialized circumstances
(Thompson, Mastering 66-7). The PDW must learn from the deficiencies of
the machine pistol.
IIII. Back to the Future
The Astra Model F. Hill SMG, Polish PM63, Colt SCAMP, Ingram, Davis
arm gun and Sarvis forearm gun all have characteristics that would lead
to a good PDW. That is to say, compact firepower.
IV. Changing Requirements and Present Criteria for PDW
In 1980 the American Rifleman reported that the Joint Service Small
Arms Program wanted to replace the 1911A1.45 pistol with a 9mm and
improve hit probability (Cowgill 82). Even today the Close Combat
Armament Center brochure of TACOM-ARDEC, Picatinny Arsenal, lists the
M9 as a PDW.
The requirements changed in 1993 from a simple handgun to:
Weight: <1 .5="" 100="" br="" lbs.="" meter="" range="">Defeat body armor at 50 meters
Hand-free carry and to be worn on person 24 hours a day
Use by special operations troops ( Crist 102, 106).
According to the Army Small Arms Master Plan of 1995, it was
reported that the PDW should be:
<3 500-625="" br="" ft.="" lbs.="" range="">Concealable Recoil of 9mm
Low magnetic signature Reliable in all weather (Grimes 34-5)
A later report in 1997 indicates:
Replace pistols/SMGs Selective fire
200 meter range Soft/hard target capability
Leap ahead technology
Users: those not armed with rifles, special operations, and law
enforcement ( Steadman, Fighting 21-2).
Nick Steadman reported that the NATO European Staff target for
the PDW as of October 1999 was:
Weight: Handheld – 1 kg (700 gm. desired) Shoulder - 3 kg
Range: 100-200 meters Protected targets: 30-50 meters desired
Suitable while wearing armor, NBC suits and winter clothing (SADW).
According to Mark McFadden of the Picatinny Arsenal, the U.K. has
combined with NATO to develop a PDW replacing the 9mm. However,
the U.S. does not intend to replace its 9 mm systems (E-mail).
U.K. Summary of Requirements:
<.5 meters long Weight: loaded – 3 kg.
Defeat CRISAT protected targets: 150 meters
Off the shelf designs in calibers not used by UK armed forces and in
5.56 will be assessed (no 9mm?)
First batch in service 2003; follow up deliveries: 2004 and 2005
(MoD) (Wood).
In summary, the PDW requirements evolved from a replacement for
the .45 pistol to an entirely new ambitious and even radical firearms
category.
V. Design Problems
To keep a PDW compact, magazine capacity of 25 rds., range
requirements and body armor penetration are difficult to achieve.
Ammunition Selection is critical. To achieve high magazine
capacity, reducing the base size of the cartridge allows more rounds to
be stored in the magazine. Reducing the bullet size and weight also helps
with this problem, i.e., HK 4.6mm, FN 5.7mm.
Storing the magazine in the pistol handle does not allow enough
round capacity (25 rds.). Enlarging the pistol handle will make the firearm
difficult to use for those with less than large hands and with winter gloves.
Necking down standard pistol rounds allows the use of a standard pistol
design, i.e. .224Boz, .224 VOB. Note, as discussed previously in machine
pistols, this layout does not allow good control on full auto-fire.
Most of these attempts mean using cartridges of small size and thus
stopping power In the Korean War, the 7.62 Tokarev and .30 carbine
gained the reputation of having poor stopping power (Russ 143, 151, 212).
Increasing the base or overall size of the cartridge will increase the
length and size of the magazine, thus hurting the compactness of the
PDW, i.e., 224Boz, 5.56mm NATO.
Body Armor Penetration of CRISAT protected targets at 150 meters is
a formidable task for the PDW. CRISAT body armor consists of 1. mm
titanium with twenty layers of aramid (John, James 45). If this is an allimportant
demand, then the 9mm will not do. Then others will ask, why not
go to the 5.56 NATO cartridge.
Other possible candidates are: . 221 Fireball, 5.7 Johnson, .30
carbine, 9mm Win. Magnum, 9.2mm Russian. High technology
ammunition, such as the Steyr plastic cased flechette could be utilized.
Any new ammunition means increased cost and logistics.
Use of the standard magazine increases the size of the firearm. The
Czechoslovak and Uzi designs are the most space efficient. The new HK
4.6 mm PDW follows this layout. Still, in most designs the magazine
protrudes, hurting the compactness of the firearm.
Ammunition and Size will Determine the Design of the PDW.
VI Can the 9mm x 19 Fly?
Would the 9mm NATO make an effective PDW cartridge? Does it
have the effective range?
Theoretical Range:
Line of sight danger zone 350 meters (45 x 160 cm target)
Terminal Ballistics 630 (15 kg, 108 ft lbs)
Relative penetration (ball) 300 (steel helmet)
(Kjellgren 40-3)
Majority SMGs 100 – 200
Selective fire/long barrel 250-350 yds. (Nelson/Musgrave 6)
SMGs 150 meters (Dmitrieff 9)
SMGs – aimed/suppressive fire 200 (Ferguson 77)
Demonstrated Range:
.22RF handgun/no wind 500 yds. (full silhouette)
.38 target handguns 300 (turkey silhouette)
(Keith 109, 116)
SIG P210 pistol 100-200 (Thompson 71)
MP5 Semi-Auto 150 (Ayoob 7)
SMGs 100-150 meters
(Taylor, Sensible 23)
Marshal Arms Pistol 150 yds. (Balsavage)
It becomes apparent that the 9mm x 19 has more range potential
than most are aware of. Remember Elmer Keith using a .44 magnum
hitting a deer at 500-600 yards ( Seyfried 26).
Heavier Loading/Longer Barrel would improve the 9mm as Dmitrieff
suggests, which would put it into the carbine class (3). This is what the
Czechoslovaks did with the Models 24 and 26 in 7.62 Tok (Nelson and
Lockhoven 189). 9mm 5mg ammunition exists and +P, +P+ ammo are
used on a regular basis by law enforcement. Further comparisons are:
Thompson – Center pistol 9 in. barrel CCI Blazer 124 gr – 1350 Fps
Revolver 4 in barrel Rem. 357 125 – 1450
(Comus, 222, 4)
Walther P38 4-7/8 in Win. 115 – 1155
Marshal Arms Pistol 6.5 in Win. 115 – 1212
(Balsavage)
With a longer barrel, an increase of 15% velocity can be gained
(McLaughlin 67).
Better Sights equal to current assault rifles and/or high technology. Tritium
red dot type of sights would improve hit capability and range.
Body Armor can be overcome by using armor piercing ammunition at
reasonable ranges, although civilian police would not appreciate this.
Common ammo as used by the pistol is an advantage on the battlefield
(McLaughlin). Any new, non-standard ammunition increases logistical
supply problems. Note: the U.S. does not intend to change from the 9mm
system (McFadden). High tech ammunition not only increases logistics,
but also the time/cost for research and development. Will any nonstandard
ammunition provide a significant tactical advantage over the
9mm?
The 9mm x 19’s advantage is that it is the world’s most used military
pistol/SMG cartridge! Will the 9mm make an effective PDW? Only time,
range and armor piercing questions will tell.
VII Proposed Criteria for PDW
Height: 6 in/15.4cm Barrel: 7 in+/17.8 cm+
Length: <12 3="" br="" cm="" in="" kg="" lbs="" weight:="">Capacity: 25+ rds. Cyclic Rate: semi, burst, 600 rpm
Sights: Rifle, tritium dot Range: 150 meters
Stocks: Retractable, Detachable Ammo: 9mm, 221 fireball,
Steyr Flechette, ?
Features:
Ambidextrous controls Optional higher capacity
magazine
Flash suppressor/muzzle brake Suppressor
Picatinny rail for: sights Modular design
and accessories Tactical sling
Most important criteria:
Ammo selection must meet range, armor piercing and stopping
power requirements. Is the 9mm x 19 good enough? Will adopting nonstandard
or high tech ammo be enough of a tactical advantage over
the logistical disadvantage?
Sights: use assault rifle type of sight or the new tritium dot sights: Trijicon,
Ring Sight, Meprolight. These new types of sights will increase speed of
day/night target acquisition and range without needing batteries.
Stocks must be retractable, i.e., M3, H&K, etc. Also, detachable, folding,
sturdy and aid shooting.
The horizontal magazine makes the firearm more compact as contrasted
to standard magazines, which protrude from the firearm.
With the magazine placed horizontally above and parallel to the
barrel, it allows: compactness, high magazine capacity, able to fire from
the low-prone position, holsterable (Marshal Arms). Low barrel position
with the pistol handle forward makes repeat shots easier and to be fired
one-handed. The Hill SMG set the example for the HKG11, FNP90 and
Marshal Arms Assault Pistol.
Holsterable to be available to the user at all times.
Compact firepower, keep the PDW small. Do not make it into a larger
SMG or assault rifle.
VII (B) Slide comparing Uzi SMG to horizontal magazine firearm
VII (C) Slide comparing HKMP5 to Marshal Arms Assault Pistol
VIII Cautionary Note
PDW will be a highly desirable weapon for terrorists and criminals. It
offers concealed firepower, more range and magazine capacity than the
pistol and shotgun. More attention will be needed to secure these
firearms.
Yes, there are already other compact firearms out there. Also, we
all know that criminals follow all gun control legislation.
IX Need for and Tactical Role of the PDW
The PDW is not an assault rifle! For troops that need shorter rifles, arm
them with mini-assault rifles.
The pistol is regarded as a defensive weapon (Taylor, Analysis 75),
with a maximum effective range out to 25 meters for most personnel. Col.
Cooper states it takes a minimum of 500 rds. to train on (101). Also, the
instructors must be highly qualified. Its magazine capacity and range are
limited.
In 1963, Nelson’s The World’s SMG, stated, “Previous firearms for selfdefense,
such as pistols, are no longer sufficient for the crews of heavy
weapons, or for the members of small specialized infantry or patrol units.”
(20).
Dmitrieff echoed the above by saying, “The need for a light and
compact arm, more accurate than a pistol, has been felt by soldiers since
the introduction of firearms.” (5).
Both have encouraged the development and use of the SMG.
Chuck Taylor has pointed out that the stocked machine pistol and the
SMG are more effective than the pistol (Machine 50). Even though the
assault rifle has replaced the SMG in a larger role, both are too large for
PDW applications.
Tactical Mission Need: Personal Defense Weapon to provide more
firepower and range than a pistol, yet is smaller than the standard SMG,
carbine, and assault rifle. Required for crew-served weapons personnel,
wheel/armor/aircraft crews, combat leaders, special operations, police,
SWAT, etc. Holsterable/concealable. One-handed firing while: driving,
boarding ships, climbing, rappelling, wounded, etc. or those normally
issued with a pistol.
The PDW is controllable on full-automatic, has more range,
magazine capacity and is easier to train on than the pistol. Without a
stock, it is basically a defensive compact weapon. (Note: some slings aid
in firing). When a tanker has to sweep his vehicle or unhorse it – he will
have a far more capable PDW than a pistol!
Can the PDW Be Offensive?
Yes, with a well-designed stock that aids shooting. Detachable,
retractable, aid in compactness.
Goods sights equal to rifle or high tech tritium ret dot sights help in
target acquisition and range. Both stocks and sights give the PDW full use
of its potential.
Combined with other features previously mentioned, all combine to
give the PDW a hit capability to 150 meters and equal to most SMG in
combat effectiveness. The PDW could be compared to a miniaturized
SMG but with longer range and accuracy potential.
Its niche is compact firepower. With the recent emphasis on Military
Operations in Urban Terrain and Close Quarters Battle, the need for it is
even stronger.
Let us change the Personal Defense Weapon’s name to the
“Assault Pistol” to emphasize its size and offensive potential.
X Errors and Recommended Reading
All errors, opinions and conclusions are solely the author’s. The hope
of this presentation is to further debate, and in so doing, benefit the soldier
and police officer.
Recommended Reading
Historical:
World’s Submachine Guns, Vol. I, by Nelson, Lockhoven.
World’s Machine Pistols and Submachine Guns, Vol IIA, by Nelson,
Musgrave.
Shooting Impression:
Karward, Charles
Thompson, Leroy
both in leading firearms magazines.
Up-to-Date Info:
Small Arms Review: Smallarmsreview@aol.com
Steadman, Nick: Small Arms Data by Wire (SADW)
SADW @compuserve.com and leading firearms magazines.
Tactical Use of:
Books and articles by Taylor, Chuck:
The Combat Shotgun and Submachine Gun: A Special Weapons Analysis
SWAT magazine
Tactical Shooter
WORKS CITED
Ayoob, Massad. “Full Auto Firing Techniques.” Full Auto. Vol. 1. 1984.
Balsavage, Walter. “9mm x 19 Tests by author.”
Close Combat Armaments Center, U.S. Army Armament Research,
Development and Engineering Center. Picatinny Arsenal.
Cowgill, James. “Small Arms for Tomorrow’s Battlefield.” American
Rifleman. Jun. 1980.
Comus, Steve.The Gun Digest Book of 9mm Handguns. 2nd Ed. Northbrook:
DBI Books. MCMXCIII.
Cooper, Jeff. Cooper on Handguns. Los Angeles: Peterson. 1974.
Crimes, Vincent. “Small Arms Plan Yields Results, New Contracts.” National
Defense. Jul./Aug. 1995.
Crist, Stanley. “The Small Arms Master Plan.” The Gun Digest, 1993. 47th Ed.
Ken Warner. Northbrook: DBI Books. 1992.
Dmitrieff, G. Submachine Gun Designer’s Handbook. Cornville: Desert.
1981.
Ferguson, Tom. Modern Law Enforcement Weapons and Tactics. 2nd Ed.
Northbrook: DBI Books. MCMXCI.
John, Jeff and James, Gary. “World’s Hottest Pistol Round.” Guns and
Ammo: High Tech Firearms. 1999.
Karwan, Charles. “Spitfires.” American Handgunner: Combat 1999
Annual. 1999.
Keith, Elmer. Sixguns by Keith. Harrisburg: Stackpole. 1961.
McFadden, Mark J. E-mail to author. 14 Apr 2000.
McLoughlin, Chris. “SMGs, ARs and SGNs: Law Enforcement’s Choice.”
Small Arms Review. Jul. 1999.
Nelson, Thomas and Lockhoven, Hans. The World’s Submachine Guns
(Machine Pistols) Vol. I. Cologne: International Small Arms. 1964.
---. and Musgrave, Daniel. The World’s Machine Pistols and Submachine
Guns, Vol. IIA. Hong Kong: Chelsas Ltd. 1980.
Russ, Martin. Breakout: The Chosin Reservoir Campaign, Korea, 1950.
New York: Fromn, 1999.
Seyfried, Ross. “Long-Range Handgunning.” Handguns Annual. 1999.
Steadman, Nick. “Future Shot: More Bang for Your Buck (Rogers).”
Fighting Firearms. Spring 1997.
---. Small Arms Data by Wire (SADW). #29. Oct. 1999.
SADW@compuserve.com.
Taylor, Chuck. The Combat Shotgun and SMG: A Special Weapons
Analysis. Boulder: Paladin Press. 1985.
---. “Machine Pistols.” Guns Illustrated: 1968. Vernon Hills: DBI Books. 1967.
---. “The Safe, Sane and Sensible SMG.” SWAT. April 1982.
---. “The Submachine Gun Today.” Oct. 1999.
Thompson, Leroy. “Swiss Perfection for Y2K.” Handguns. Oct. 1999.
---. “Mastering the Machine Pistol.” Combat Handguns. Dec. 1999.
U.K. “Summary of Requirements: PDW.” MoD Contracts Bulletin
26 Jan. 2000.
Wood, N.M. E-mail “Future Possible Purchase DCC1/031-Personal Defense
Weapon.” Defence Procurement Agency, 15 Aug. 2000 to author.
IV. Changing Requirements and Present Criteria for PDW
In 1980 the American Rifleman reported that the Joint Service Small Arms
Program wanted to replace the 1911A1.45 pistol with a 9mm and improve hit
probability (Cowgill 82). Even today the Close Combat Armament Center
brochure of TACOM-ARDEC, Picatinny Arsenal, lists the M9 as a PDW.
The requirements changed in 1993 from a simple handgun to:
Weight: <1 .5="" 100="" br="" lbs.="" meter="" range="">Defeat body armor at 50 meters
Hand-free carry and to be worn on person 24 hours a day
Use by special operations troops (Crist 102, 106).
According to the Army Small Arms Master Plan of 1995, it was reported
that the PDW should be:
<3 500-625="" br="" ft.="" lbs.="" range="">Concealable Recoil of 9mm
Low magnetic signature Reliable in all weather (Grimes 34-5)
A later report in 1997 indicates:
Replace pistols/SMGs Selective fire
200 meter range Soft/hard target capability
Leap ahead technology
Users: those not armed with rifles, special operations, and law
enforcement (Steadman, Fighting 21-2).
Nick Steadman reported that the NATO European Staff target for the PDW
as of October 1999 was:
Weight: Handheld – 1 kg (700 gm. desired) Shoulder - 3 kg
Range: 100-200 meters Protected targets: 30-50 meters desired
Suitable while wearing armor, NBC suits and winter clothing (SADW).
According to Mark McFadden of the Picatinny Arsenal, the U.K. has
combined with NATO to develop a PDW replacing the 9mm. However, the U.S.
does not intend to replace its 9 mm systems (E-mail).
U.K. Summary of Requirements:
<.5 meters long Weight: loaded – 3 kg.
Defeat CRISAT protected targets: 150 meters
Off the shelf designs in calibers not used by UK armed forces and in
5.56 will be assessed (no 9mm?)
First batch in service 2003; follow up deliveries: 2004 and 2005
(MoD) (Wood).
In summary, the PDW requirements evolved from a replacement for the
.45 pistol to an entirely new ambitious and even radical firearms category.
VI Can the 9mm x 19 Fly?
Would the 9mm NATO make an effective PDW cartridge? Does it
have the effective range?
Theoretical Range:
Line of sight danger zone 350 meters (45 x 160 cm target)
Terminal Ballistics 630 (15 kg, 108 ft lbs)
Relative penetration (ball) 300 (steel helmet)
(Kjellgren 40-3)
Majority SMGs 100 – 200
Selective fire/long barrel 250-350 yds. (Nelson/Musgrave 6)
SMGs 150 meters (Dmitrieff 9)
SMGs – aimed/suppressive fire 200 (Ferguson 77)
Demonstrated Range:
.22RF handgun/no wind 500 yds. (full silhouette)
.38 target handguns 300 (turkey silhouette)
(Keith 109, 116)
SIG P210 pistol 100-200 (Thompson 71)
MP5 Semi-Auto 150 (Ayoob 7)
SMGs 100-150 meters
(Taylor, Sensible 23)
Marshal Arms Pistol 150 yds. (Balsavage)
It becomes apparent that the 9mm x 19 has more range potential
than most are aware of. Remember Elmer Keith using a .44 magnum
hitting a deer at 500-600 yards ( Seyfried 26).
VII Proposed Criteria for PDW
Height: 6 in/15.4cm Barrel: 7 in+/17.8 cm+
Length: <12 3="" br="" cm="" in="" kg="" lbs="" weight:="">Capacity: 25+ rds. Cyclic Rate: semi, burst, 600 rpm
Sights: Rifle, tritium dot Range: 150 meters
Stocks: Retractable, Detachable Ammo: 9mm, 221 fireball,
Steyr Flechette, ?
Features:
Ambidextrous controls Optional higher capacity
magazine
Flash suppressor/muzzle brake Suppressor
Picatinny rail for: sights Modular design
and accessories Tactical sling
Most important criteria:
Ammo selection must meet range, armor piercing and stopping
power requirements. Is the 9mm x 19 good enough? Will adopting nonstandard
or high tech ammo be enough of a tactical advantage over
the logistical disadvantage?
Sights: use assault rifle type of sight or the new tritium dot sights: Trijicon,
Ring Sight, Meprolight. These new types of sights will increase speed of
day/night target acquisition and range without needing batteries.
Stocks must be retractable, i.e., M3, H&K, etc. Also, detachable, folding,
sturdy and aid shooting.
The horizontal magazine makes the firearm more compact as contrasted
to standard magazines, which protrude from the firearm.
With the magazine placed horizontally above and parallel to the
barrel, it allows: compactness, high magazine capacity, able to fire from
the low-prone position, holsterable (Marshal Arms). Low barrel position
with the pistol handle forward makes repeat shots easier and to be fired
one-handed. The Hill SMG set the example for the HKG11, FNP90 and
Marshal Arms Assault Pistol.
Holsterable to be available to the user at all times.
Compact firepower, keep the PDW small. Do not make it into a larger
SMG or assault rifle.
...
Thursday, December 11, 2008
Help! I cannot find an ATF ruling on an electric trigger.
I'm wondering about a .22 bull-pup project that I would like to try.
There is almost no room in the design for a transfer bar or cable set-up to operate the trigger, and I really do not want to make anymore room.
What might the ruling be if I were to use an electrically-switched trigger, 123C battery and a small electric solenoid? I would have enough room for something like that.
I KNOW that disabled shooters are allowed to use electric triggers and air-powered set-ups...But I need to know the legality concerning non-challenged folks.
The only reason that I'm really concerned is that an electric trigger could (in my opinion) be easily set-up as an electronic trigger, capable of pulsing the current...which would put the project in NFA territory, and I don't want to go there.
There is almost no room in the design for a transfer bar or cable set-up to operate the trigger, and I really do not want to make anymore room.
What might the ruling be if I were to use an electrically-switched trigger, 123C battery and a small electric solenoid? I would have enough room for something like that.
I KNOW that disabled shooters are allowed to use electric triggers and air-powered set-ups...But I need to know the legality concerning non-challenged folks.
The only reason that I'm really concerned is that an electric trigger could (in my opinion) be easily set-up as an electronic trigger, capable of pulsing the current...which would put the project in NFA territory, and I don't want to go there.
Wednesday, December 10, 2008
Dlask Arms Corp. Pump Action Carbine
Features:
# Pump Action Carbine
# Chambered for Military 5.56 and .223 Remington
# Proprietary 20 or 30 rd. magazines (do not fit AR-15)
# Accepts standard AR-15 magazines (must still be pinned to 5 rds.)
# Custom barrel lengths available (14.5" barrel shown)
# Class: Restricted
# Made in Canada
Will be available by summer 2006.
Email: dlask@telus.net
Phone: (604) 527-9942
Fax: (604) 527-9982
Dlask Arms Corp.
202B - 1546 Derwent Way
Delta, BC, Canada V3M6M4
http://www.dlaskarms.com
[picture]
# Pump Action Carbine
# Chambered for Military 5.56 and .223 Remington
# Proprietary 20 or 30 rd. magazines (do not fit AR-15)
# Accepts standard AR-15 magazines (must still be pinned to 5 rds.)
# Custom barrel lengths available (14.5" barrel shown)
# Class: Restricted
# Made in Canada
Will be available by summer 2006.
Email: dlask@telus.net
Phone: (604) 527-9942
Fax: (604) 527-9982
Dlask Arms Corp.
202B - 1546 Derwent Way
Delta, BC, Canada V3M6M4
http://www.dlaskarms.com
[picture]
Panther™ Pump Pistol
Panther™ Pump Pistol
Features
Barrel:
10.5" Length w/A2 flash hider (birdcage)
4140 chrome-moly steel heavy barrel (pistol)
Manganese Phosphated
6 grooves, right-hand 1x9 twist, button rifled
Chamber:
5.56x45mm
Method of Operation:
pump action rotating bolt
Bolt & Carrier:
8620 steel bolt carrier, heat treated and plated per Mil Spec
Phosphated steel bolt, heat treated and plated per Mil Spec
Sights:
A2 front sight Assembly
Weight:
Empty - 5 lbs.
Length:
19" Pistol
Upper Receiver:
A2 fixed carrying handle and and rear sight adjustable for windage and elevation, Forged
7075-T6 aircraft aluminum alloy
Hard coat anodized per Mil Spec and Teflon coated black
Dust cover
Shell deflector
Round forward assist
Right hand ejection
Lower Receiver:
Forged 7075-T6 aircraft aluminum alloy
Hard coat anodized per Mil Spec and Teflon coated black
Semi-auto trigger group
Aluminum trigger guard
Aluminum magazine release button
Handguards:
Aluminum Pump Action
Knurled
Each rifle comes with 2- 30 rd. Magazines, 1- Nylon Web Sling and 1- Cleaning Kit
DPMS Panther Pump Action Rifle AR 15
DPMS Panther Pump Action Rifle AR 15
“Pump action” is usually a phrase used to refer to shotguns, not rifles; but, in true DPMS Panther Arms style, the innovative DPMS Panther Pump Action Rifle is just that: pump action. Chambered for the .223 Cal, this DPMS AR 15 features:
• Barrel Length: 20”
• Sights: Dual aperture rear sight adjustable for windage and elevation; Elevation adjustable Mil Spec front sight post
• Weight Unloaded: 8.5lbs
• Length: 39.5”
• Stock: Black Zytel composition A2 Buttstock with Trap Door Assembly OR Aluminum Telescoping Carbine Stock Assembly
• Handguards: Aluminum Free Float Tube
With a black Teflon coating on the upper and lower receivers, this DPMS AR 15 is as cosmetically appealing as it is high-performance. With the choice of 10, 20, or 30 round magazines (where available), an A2 compensator (flash hider), and 4140 steel heavy barrel, it’s almost impossible not to love the DPMS Panther Pump Action Rifle.
Call for price.
OUT OF STOCK
“Pump action” is usually a phrase used to refer to shotguns, not rifles; but, in true DPMS Panther Arms style, the innovative DPMS Panther Pump Action Rifle is just that: pump action. Chambered for the .223 Cal, this DPMS AR 15 features:
• Barrel Length: 20”
• Sights: Dual aperture rear sight adjustable for windage and elevation; Elevation adjustable Mil Spec front sight post
• Weight Unloaded: 8.5lbs
• Length: 39.5”
• Stock: Black Zytel composition A2 Buttstock with Trap Door Assembly OR Aluminum Telescoping Carbine Stock Assembly
• Handguards: Aluminum Free Float Tube
With a black Teflon coating on the upper and lower receivers, this DPMS AR 15 is as cosmetically appealing as it is high-performance. With the choice of 10, 20, or 30 round magazines (where available), an A2 compensator (flash hider), and 4140 steel heavy barrel, it’s almost impossible not to love the DPMS Panther Pump Action Rifle.
Call for price.
OUT OF STOCK
Adapter 9mm PARA / 4mm M20
Nabízím adapter 9mm PARA / 4mm M20 . Na tento předmět není potřeba povolení. Kupující stvrzuje svým přihozením že je mu 18 let. Pravděpodobně se jedná o "lidovou tvořivost" zvláštní kosočtvercová signatura.
Rád odpovím na otázky. Náboj M20 4mm není součástí aukce!!!
[more pics available]
Rád odpovím na otázky. Náboj M20 4mm není součástí aukce!!!
[more pics available]
Lever action rifle La-30 calibre .30 Carbine Cartridge
[A good starting point for a 5.7x28mm AR?)
This is our Lever action Gallery rifle, with a superb cartridge capable of being loaded for indoor low loads up to MOA busting 300 yard range accuracy with a weight and balance that suits many matches and multi position shooting.The left hand cocking and right hand cocking levers can still be specified and used which together with the rear charger, can make this the only 4 system cocking rifle in the world. NB This rifle can also be specified as a straight pull only.
Standard specification rifle - (Illustrated rifle is not Standard Spec)
Lower receiver assembly
SGC forged 7075-t6 alloy lower receiver lever action version
A2 rifle buttstock and buffer tube assembly
SGC & DPMS lower receiver parts
Standard trigger and hammer
Pearce grip
Standard safety
Standard mag release
Standard bolt release
Magazine 16 round capacity fully CNC machined
Upper receiver assembly
High or low, match upper receiver with match bolt & lever action carrier (integral scope rail)
standard firing pin
Alloy free float forend
Stainless fluted match barrel, 18" approx length 1 in 10 twist
Assembly and proof testing of custom rifle
SGC heavy duty forend stud
Price for this rifle £1017.26 (Inc. VAT @ 17.5%)
This is our Lever action Gallery rifle, with a superb cartridge capable of being loaded for indoor low loads up to MOA busting 300 yard range accuracy with a weight and balance that suits many matches and multi position shooting.The left hand cocking and right hand cocking levers can still be specified and used which together with the rear charger, can make this the only 4 system cocking rifle in the world. NB This rifle can also be specified as a straight pull only.
Standard specification rifle - (Illustrated rifle is not Standard Spec)
Lower receiver assembly
SGC forged 7075-t6 alloy lower receiver lever action version
A2 rifle buttstock and buffer tube assembly
SGC & DPMS lower receiver parts
Standard trigger and hammer
Pearce grip
Standard safety
Standard mag release
Standard bolt release
Magazine 16 round capacity fully CNC machined
Upper receiver assembly
High or low, match upper receiver with match bolt & lever action carrier (integral scope rail)
standard firing pin
Alloy free float forend
Stainless fluted match barrel, 18" approx length 1 in 10 twist
Assembly and proof testing of custom rifle
SGC heavy duty forend stud
Price for this rifle £1017.26 (Inc. VAT @ 17.5%)
What is the best manually-operated assault rifles and carbines in the UK-today?
I would like to ask our resident UK shooters on THR,as well as those Australian shooters,who live in those states,that actually permit them.If anyone else,has fired those types of guns-then they are free to contribute their opinions.:) :)
My favourites are as follows::)
Saiga AK-103 in7.62mm
Southern Gun Company LA9/30 in 9mm and .30 carbine
AR-15 5.56mm M16A2 and M4A1 Carbine.
Of course, I like so many others actually prefered them in their original :mad: :fire: configuration,complete with a semi-automatic function,but because of the SLR ban in 1988/1989,we are limited to those that are specially-made,for us.
Still anything is better than nothing.
Strangely,we can have a semi-automatic rifle,only if it is chambered in .22 rimfire and possibly soon,the other rimfire calibres.
posted by steven04 (re: the SGC lever action)
The pistol grip is the lever. The front vert grip is needed to anchor the rifle into your shoulder and prevents slipping. Its fast and easy to cycle, just needs a little practice to become familiar with the action.
My favourites are as follows::)
Saiga AK-103 in7.62mm
Southern Gun Company LA9/30 in 9mm and .30 carbine
AR-15 5.56mm M16A2 and M4A1 Carbine.
Of course, I like so many others actually prefered them in their original :mad: :fire: configuration,complete with a semi-automatic function,but because of the SLR ban in 1988/1989,we are limited to those that are specially-made,for us.
Still anything is better than nothing.
Strangely,we can have a semi-automatic rifle,only if it is chambered in .22 rimfire and possibly soon,the other rimfire calibres.
posted by steven04 (re: the SGC lever action)
The pistol grip is the lever. The front vert grip is needed to anchor the rifle into your shoulder and prevents slipping. Its fast and easy to cycle, just needs a little practice to become familiar with the action.
Walther PP 4mm conversion
We get to kill two birds with one stone this time around: We'll take a look at the very popular Walther PP pocket pistol as well as it's often hard to locate 4mm conversion unit. Indoor shooting was once a very popular pastime in Europe and it was not at all unusual to fire so called Parlor pistols while visiting one's host...after a few beers and chatting about politics of course (anyone think that Adolph Hitler charactor might actually become chancellor? NAH!). Although dedicated firearms were made for this purpose many well heeled folks would purchase 4mm adaptors which allowed them to enjoy their pistols indoors while using these low powered cartridges and still retain the ability to fire standard ammunition from their pistols when needed. Perhaps the most well known of these low powered rounds was the RWS M20 centerfire which fired a .157 caliber round lead ball weighing 7 grains. Both Mauser and Walther produced adaptors to allow this tiny cartridge to be used in their pistols and we will look at the kit intended for the Walther PP.
The basic Walther kit consisted of a 4mm rifled barrel insert with a brass screw to secure it into the .32 ACP barrel, a small punch, cleaning brush and rod and a series of cartridge adaptors into which the 4mm M20 rounds were inserted. Once a sufficent number of adaptors were loaded they were inserted into a standard PP magazine and the weapon loaded in a normal manner. Since the 4mm cartridge used a small pistol primer as it's source of power this energy was not sufficent to cycle the PP's action automatically so each new round would have to be cycled into the chamber by hand retracting the slide to eject the spent shell. This process would then be repeated until the supply of cartridges in the magazine was depleted. After firing, the hand ejected cases were gathered up and a punch was used to remove the spent 4mm M20 from the adaptors. Although this particular kit was the most popular there was also a second type of 4mm conversion which did away with the adaptors all together. In these units the 4mm barrel insert had a short loading shelf at its breech and a single 4mm M20 round was placed onto this shelf with a spoon type device. After the pistol was fired a long rod was inserted into the muzzel of the pistol and the spent M20 case was driven out of the barrel after which time another 4mm round could be inserted into the barrel using the supplied spoon. Due to their slow rate of fire this second type of kit was not as popular as the first.
These 4mm conversions survived into at least the 1960s although sales numbers remained small. An interesting pistol, the ERP74, was developed in the 1960s by the German firm ERMA which duplicated the Walther PPk except it was chambered specifically for the 4mm RWS M20 cartridge. While the M20 cartridge remained too weak to cycle the pistols action, ERMA developed a cleaver method to overcome this. The 4mm cartridges were inserted into their standard adaptors and then placed into the ERP74's magazine after which the slide was cycled to chamber a round and the trigger pressed to fire the pistol. After firing, the slide remained closed and the trigger is pressed a second time which caused the slide to retract and eject the spent cartridge adaptor. As the slide closed again it chamberd a fresh cartridge, the trigger was pressed again and the firing cycle continued until the magazine was empty. These ERMA 4mm pistols are seldom seen in this country.
The basic Walther kit consisted of a 4mm rifled barrel insert with a brass screw to secure it into the .32 ACP barrel, a small punch, cleaning brush and rod and a series of cartridge adaptors into which the 4mm M20 rounds were inserted. Once a sufficent number of adaptors were loaded they were inserted into a standard PP magazine and the weapon loaded in a normal manner. Since the 4mm cartridge used a small pistol primer as it's source of power this energy was not sufficent to cycle the PP's action automatically so each new round would have to be cycled into the chamber by hand retracting the slide to eject the spent shell. This process would then be repeated until the supply of cartridges in the magazine was depleted. After firing, the hand ejected cases were gathered up and a punch was used to remove the spent 4mm M20 from the adaptors. Although this particular kit was the most popular there was also a second type of 4mm conversion which did away with the adaptors all together. In these units the 4mm barrel insert had a short loading shelf at its breech and a single 4mm M20 round was placed onto this shelf with a spoon type device. After the pistol was fired a long rod was inserted into the muzzel of the pistol and the spent M20 case was driven out of the barrel after which time another 4mm round could be inserted into the barrel using the supplied spoon. Due to their slow rate of fire this second type of kit was not as popular as the first.
These 4mm conversions survived into at least the 1960s although sales numbers remained small. An interesting pistol, the ERP74, was developed in the 1960s by the German firm ERMA which duplicated the Walther PPk except it was chambered specifically for the 4mm RWS M20 cartridge. While the M20 cartridge remained too weak to cycle the pistols action, ERMA developed a cleaver method to overcome this. The 4mm cartridges were inserted into their standard adaptors and then placed into the ERP74's magazine after which the slide was cycled to chamber a round and the trigger pressed to fire the pistol. After firing, the slide remained closed and the trigger is pressed a second time which caused the slide to retract and eject the spent cartridge adaptor. As the slide closed again it chamberd a fresh cartridge, the trigger was pressed again and the firing cycle continued until the magazine was empty. These ERMA 4mm pistols are seldom seen in this country.
Lothar Walther Barrel Inserts
Barrel inserts
In just a few minutes, and without tools, a gun can be converted into a smaller calibre, which enables it to be used both indoors and outdoors for training or plinking with less expensive ammunition.
In just a few minutes, and without tools, a gun can be converted into a smaller calibre, which enables it to be used both indoors and outdoors for training or plinking with less expensive ammunition.
Welcome To Pacific Tool and Gauge Inc.
Reamers, Remington Performance Parts, and more.
At Pacific Tool and Gauge we never stop trying to please our customers. We are constantly reviewing the science of cutting design, leading to more efficient methods of chip removal, thus giving your product a fine finish. We manufacture all types of Tungsten Carbide and High Speed Steel products for industrial and consumer use. We also are the largest Global manufacturer of custom chamber reamers for the firearms industry.
Pacific Tool and Gauge has been grinding precision cutting tools since 1957. For many years Pacific has manufactured Machined Parts and Cutting Tools for the Aerospace and Automotive Industries. In 1994 Dave Kiff joined Pacific Precision Grinding and brought with him a wealth of cutting tool knowledge. Dave formed what is now known as Pacific Tool and Gauge.
Pacific Tool's staff represents years of experience, not only in the firearms industry but also in the fast growing Hi-Technical Aerospace Programs of the future. In the final analysis, there’s only one cutting tool that will help your production needs. It’s the tool that has to do the job today that gives a reflection on the product you have to sell tomorrow. If it’s Pacific Tool you can be sure it’s going to do the job right.
At Pacific Tool and Gauge we never stop trying to please our customers. We are constantly reviewing the science of cutting design, leading to more efficient methods of chip removal, thus giving your product a fine finish. We manufacture all types of Tungsten Carbide and High Speed Steel products for industrial and consumer use. We also are the largest Global manufacturer of custom chamber reamers for the firearms industry.
Pacific Tool and Gauge has been grinding precision cutting tools since 1957. For many years Pacific has manufactured Machined Parts and Cutting Tools for the Aerospace and Automotive Industries. In 1994 Dave Kiff joined Pacific Precision Grinding and brought with him a wealth of cutting tool knowledge. Dave formed what is now known as Pacific Tool and Gauge.
Pacific Tool's staff represents years of experience, not only in the firearms industry but also in the fast growing Hi-Technical Aerospace Programs of the future. In the final analysis, there’s only one cutting tool that will help your production needs. It’s the tool that has to do the job today that gives a reflection on the product you have to sell tomorrow. If it’s Pacific Tool you can be sure it’s going to do the job right.
Lothar Walther 22 Conversion Kit (Nambu)
Another option for shooting a Nambu is a .22 conversion kit. When these first showed up on ebay in 2004 two of them sold for around US$175-200, although the last couple I saw went for about $65-70. They were made by Lothar Walther of Germany and look like a high quality item, but one that is not particularly easy to use (the empty has to be punched out with a rod after each shot). Here is the box. The German says “Calibre .22 LR Barrel Insert for Pistol”
Here’s what’s inside.
From top to bottom of the photo, the parts appear to be: a rod for poking out empties, a cleaning brush, two converters to adapt the centre-fire striker blow to rim fire (see below) and the barrel insert. The latter is shown here with the part that conforms to the 8mm Nambu chamber on the left and the locking nut with plastic cushion on the right. My guess is that the flat part of the chamber insert is there to clear the extractor on the bolt.
Here is a close-up of the little converter with the rim-fire firing pin at the top right.
The side of the box says: “Attention! Observe the warning on the inside of the cover.”
Here is that warning on the inside of the cover: “Warning! When shooting for a long time, tighten the locking nut from time to time.”
Here’s what’s inside.
From top to bottom of the photo, the parts appear to be: a rod for poking out empties, a cleaning brush, two converters to adapt the centre-fire striker blow to rim fire (see below) and the barrel insert. The latter is shown here with the part that conforms to the 8mm Nambu chamber on the left and the locking nut with plastic cushion on the right. My guess is that the flat part of the chamber insert is there to clear the extractor on the bolt.
Here is a close-up of the little converter with the rim-fire firing pin at the top right.
The side of the box says: “Attention! Observe the warning on the inside of the cover.”
Here is that warning on the inside of the cover: “Warning! When shooting for a long time, tighten the locking nut from time to time.”
.22 Long Rifle Conversions Part 1:
22 Long Rifle Conversion Kits for Colt AR15 Rifles and Clones
Updated November 09, 2008
Drop-in Conversion Kits:
The drop in kits are the easiest and least expensive method of converting your AR15 to a .22 caliber plinker. The kits will range in price from about $160-$250 and take about 30 seconds to install. There is a few down sides to using the drop in kits. The bullet must travel a few inches in an unrifled tube before it reaches the barrel. The barrels on most AR type rifles will typically have a twist rate that is optimized for the 5.56 Nato (.223) with a 1:7"- 1:9" barrel twist rate and not the 1:16" that works well with .22 long rifle. There is also a few thousandths of an inch difference in the bullets diameter of .22LR (.222) vs 5.56 Nato (.224). Those differences can lead to less then match grade accuracy in an AR15 but the accuracy is perfectly suited for plinking. If that accuracy is not suitable you can purchase a complete .22 long rifle upper. The cost starts at about double of the drop-in conversion and can go upwards well over $1000. The choice is yours.
...
Updated November 09, 2008
Drop-in Conversion Kits:
The drop in kits are the easiest and least expensive method of converting your AR15 to a .22 caliber plinker. The kits will range in price from about $160-$250 and take about 30 seconds to install. There is a few down sides to using the drop in kits. The bullet must travel a few inches in an unrifled tube before it reaches the barrel. The barrels on most AR type rifles will typically have a twist rate that is optimized for the 5.56 Nato (.223) with a 1:7"- 1:9" barrel twist rate and not the 1:16" that works well with .22 long rifle. There is also a few thousandths of an inch difference in the bullets diameter of .22LR (.222) vs 5.56 Nato (.224). Those differences can lead to less then match grade accuracy in an AR15 but the accuracy is perfectly suited for plinking. If that accuracy is not suitable you can purchase a complete .22 long rifle upper. The cost starts at about double of the drop-in conversion and can go upwards well over $1000. The choice is yours.
...
Tuesday, December 09, 2008
Makarov .22 LR Rimfire Conversion Kit
[Interesting concept - might be applicable to the FsN]
History
For many years, both Military and Civilian shooters have used sub Caliber conversion kits for training, low cost plinking, introducing new shooters to the shooting sports, and many other reasons. The Makarov pistol was no different, and the East Germans made and used a .22 LR conversion kit for Training, indoor target shooting, and even qualification in areas where time or range facilities did not allow the use of center fire ammunition.
The East German Conversion made use of "Carrier Cartridges", where a 22 Rim fire round was inserted into a steel "Cartridge", and loaded into the standard Magazine. A new slide and barrel insert were installed on the frame of any Makarov, and it could be loaded, aimed and fired just as it would be if center fire ammunition were being used. The recoil would be much less of course, and cost per round fired would be about 1/10 that of center fire pistol ammo.
For reference, the East German kits (when they can be found...and we've never seen one) reportedly fetch in excess of $2500.00!
The Russians and Chinese never made or used a sub-caliber conversion kit for the Makarov, that has been reported. The Bulgarians however, did develop their own .22 rim fire conversion kit for training purposes. It used a barrel insert and new slide, much like the East German units, however the Bulgarians opted for a new Magazine that would feed the 22 LR (Long Rifle) cartridges straight from the magazines, rather than fool with a separate carrier cartridge. This resulted in a better and easier to use system, and was much cheaper to manufacture.
History
For many years, both Military and Civilian shooters have used sub Caliber conversion kits for training, low cost plinking, introducing new shooters to the shooting sports, and many other reasons. The Makarov pistol was no different, and the East Germans made and used a .22 LR conversion kit for Training, indoor target shooting, and even qualification in areas where time or range facilities did not allow the use of center fire ammunition.
The East German Conversion made use of "Carrier Cartridges", where a 22 Rim fire round was inserted into a steel "Cartridge", and loaded into the standard Magazine. A new slide and barrel insert were installed on the frame of any Makarov, and it could be loaded, aimed and fired just as it would be if center fire ammunition were being used. The recoil would be much less of course, and cost per round fired would be about 1/10 that of center fire pistol ammo.
For reference, the East German kits (when they can be found...and we've never seen one) reportedly fetch in excess of $2500.00!
The Russians and Chinese never made or used a sub-caliber conversion kit for the Makarov, that has been reported. The Bulgarians however, did develop their own .22 rim fire conversion kit for training purposes. It used a barrel insert and new slide, much like the East German units, however the Bulgarians opted for a new Magazine that would feed the 22 LR (Long Rifle) cartridges straight from the magazines, rather than fool with a separate carrier cartridge. This resulted in a better and easier to use system, and was much cheaper to manufacture.
WIPO Patent Search
This facility allows you to search 1,505,609 international patent applications and to view the latest information and documents available to the International Bureau.
HAHN PRECISION - AR15 Magazine Converison Adapters
Dedicated Adapter - A9CSRD0405
Designed for the professional with a dedicated 9mm weapon system. The standard 5.56mm bolt hold open is utilized because of its superior strength over the 9mm version. The adapter can only be removed at the armorer's level once installed. Holds open on last round with Colt type magazines. 9mm Colt pattern system.
$200.00
Bottom Adapter - A9CPRB0402
Adapter loads in from the bottom of the magazine well and secures with a tension device. Ideal for users using Colt type magazines and frequently changing between calibers. Holds the bolt open on the last round with Colt type magazines. 9mm Colt pattern system.
$200.00
Top Adapter - A9CRT0702
Adapter drops into the top of the receiver and virtually impossible to remove unless the upper receiver is opened. Ideal for users using Uzi and Colt type magazines not concerned with having the bolt hold open feature. Uzi magazines require modification. 9mm Colt pattern system.
$175.00
Sten Adapter - A9OST0105
Designed for the Mil Spec AR-15 receiver to convert it to accept plentiful and inexpensive 9mm Sten magazines. Drops into top of receiver and it is virtually impossible for it to fall out even if magazine button is accidentally pressed. No modification to magazines necessary. 9mm Olympic pattern system.
$75.00
Greasegun Adapter - C45OG0105
Converts the Cavalry Arms MKII plastic receiver to accept 45 ACP Greasegun magazines. Locks into receiver when upper is fully closed and it is virtually impossible for it to fall out even if magazine button is accidentally pressed. When converting a Cavalry Arms CAV-15 MKII receiver to 45 ACP the Sub Caliber Buffer is required to prevent damage to the lower receiver. 45 ACP Olympic pattern system.
Will NOT work with Mil Spec aluminum lowers.
Designed for the professional with a dedicated 9mm weapon system. The standard 5.56mm bolt hold open is utilized because of its superior strength over the 9mm version. The adapter can only be removed at the armorer's level once installed. Holds open on last round with Colt type magazines. 9mm Colt pattern system.
$200.00
Bottom Adapter - A9CPRB0402
Adapter loads in from the bottom of the magazine well and secures with a tension device. Ideal for users using Colt type magazines and frequently changing between calibers. Holds the bolt open on the last round with Colt type magazines. 9mm Colt pattern system.
$200.00
Top Adapter - A9CRT0702
Adapter drops into the top of the receiver and virtually impossible to remove unless the upper receiver is opened. Ideal for users using Uzi and Colt type magazines not concerned with having the bolt hold open feature. Uzi magazines require modification. 9mm Colt pattern system.
$175.00
Sten Adapter - A9OST0105
Designed for the Mil Spec AR-15 receiver to convert it to accept plentiful and inexpensive 9mm Sten magazines. Drops into top of receiver and it is virtually impossible for it to fall out even if magazine button is accidentally pressed. No modification to magazines necessary. 9mm Olympic pattern system.
$75.00
Greasegun Adapter - C45OG0105
Converts the Cavalry Arms MKII plastic receiver to accept 45 ACP Greasegun magazines. Locks into receiver when upper is fully closed and it is virtually impossible for it to fall out even if magazine button is accidentally pressed. When converting a Cavalry Arms CAV-15 MKII receiver to 45 ACP the Sub Caliber Buffer is required to prevent damage to the lower receiver. 45 ACP Olympic pattern system.
Will NOT work with Mil Spec aluminum lowers.
Redman's Rifling & Reboring
Gun Barrel Relining
Gun Barrel Reboring
Gun Barrel Liners
Precision Craftsmanship
Redmans Rifling and Reboring was established in 1973 by Randall Redman. Being an accomplished machinist and gun enthusiast, Randall was trained in the art of reboring and rifling by the nation's leading barrel reborer and rifler, Ward Koozer. Randall relines barrels back to their original caliber, rebores barrels to a larger size, manufactures barrel liners to be used in barrel relines or new gun barrels, and manufactures magazine tubes for Winchester lever action rifles. Because of his top quality craftsmanship and satisfied customers, Redman's Rifling and Reboring has become the nation's leading barrel restoration shop
Pac-Nor Barreling
Pac-Nor uses a CNC turning lathe for profiling its wide variety of barrels, with over 300 of the most popular contours in memory. Most factory contours can be closely duplicated. Contours are held to within .005". As most factory contours vary slightly, for a more precise barrel-to-stock fit, it is recommended to remove and send your barrel to be measured and machined from its contour. From the lightest to the heaviest contours, Pac-Nor can duplicate, design or modify contours to suit your needs, for a $35.00 charge. Custom contours are drawn, programmed and retained in memory for approximately 3 months. If you wish us to keep yours for later orders, please specify at the outset and we will do so. NOTE: Standard barrel pricing is for 28" lengths. Longer barrels are priced at an additional $11.00 per inch up to 34", then $25.00 per inch up to 40".
Please refer to the Custom Contour Chart for designing your own contour.
Please refer to the Custom Contour Chart for designing your own contour.
Hammond Game Getter
The Hammond Game Getter is commonly known as a subcaliber adapter, subcaliber insert, cartridge adapter, squib load, gallery load, auxillary cartridge, etc. The purpose of the Hammond Game Getter is to convert your big-game rifle into a low-power rifle ideal for targets, birds, and small game at close range with minimum noise. Included in the kit are a precision made cartridge adapter with a stainless steel chamber, a bullet forming tool (swage), a few lead balls and a carrying case. Not provided are 22 caliber blanks (mail restriction).
The Hammond Game Getter is "NOT A CHILD'S TOY" and requires responsible adult use.
Warranty
Refunds will be offered when returned. This cartrige adapter is guaranteed for defects in materials and workmanship and will be replaced upon inspection. Because of close tolerance requirements, this adapter may not fire in some guns and total refunds will be offered when returned within one month of purchase. B. Hammond is not responsible nor liable for what others may do with the product.
More AR pics
posted by 22 boomer:
I got the test rifle together for shooting the commercial FN 5.7X28 ammo. I need to see how well it shoots before I plan on doing any reloading with the spent brass. The rifle functions very good as a manual straight pull bolt action and extracts and ejects the brass with ease when shooting the FN S195 and S197.
This is my test rifle;
Picture showing the bolt and handle;
The Magazine is a short 5 shot mag with a single shot follower.
I got the test rifle together for shooting the commercial FN 5.7X28 ammo. I need to see how well it shoots before I plan on doing any reloading with the spent brass. The rifle functions very good as a manual straight pull bolt action and extracts and ejects the brass with ease when shooting the FN S195 and S197.
This is my test rifle;
Picture showing the bolt and handle;
The Magazine is a short 5 shot mag with a single shot follower.
AR in 5.7x28 (not AR57
Posted by 22 boomer:
I built a test setup to try the factory ammo. Since I can't go buying anything right now I used one of my AR platforms for the test build.
This is the modified bolt
I used an old bolt left over from another project. I installed a steel bushing and cut the slots for the extractor and ejector. The ejector spring needed cutting since it was too strong for the little case and actually left an impression on the face of the rim. The AR is easy for me to work with but they aren't pretty like rifles with nice wood but they're all I have right now.
I built a test setup to try the factory ammo. Since I can't go buying anything right now I used one of my AR platforms for the test build.
This is the modified bolt
I used an old bolt left over from another project. I installed a steel bushing and cut the slots for the extractor and ejector. The ejector spring needed cutting since it was too strong for the little case and actually left an impression on the face of the rim. The AR is easy for me to work with but they aren't pretty like rifles with nice wood but they're all I have right now.
Saubier.com > Saubier.com Forums > Small Caliber Discussion Board > shooting 5.7X28.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Anybody build a bolt rifle to shoot just plain old 5.7X28 ammo? I figured it's hotter than a 22 magnum and can be reloaded. I never liked any of the bullets that the magnum came with so I figured I could reload with better stuff. Once fired brass is starting to show up and if I didn't try doing hot loads the brass might just last for a good amount of time. Any thoughts?
Anybody build a bolt rifle to shoot just plain old 5.7X28 ammo? I figured it's hotter than a 22 magnum and can be reloaded. I never liked any of the bullets that the magnum came with so I figured I could reload with better stuff. Once fired brass is starting to show up and if I didn't try doing hot loads the brass might just last for a good amount of time. Any thoughts?
MCACE CHAMBER ADAPTERS
CHAMBER ADAPTERS
Chamber adapters use the rifling in your firearm to stabilize the bullet. They are excellent tools for target practice and for downing small game, eliminating unnecessary meat destruction and the recoil of full power cartridges. Our adapters are made for rifles and, where indicated by the asterisk (*), the Thompson Contender. Adapters for the Thompson Contender ONLY are indicated by "TC" (they cannot be made with offset firing pin plug).
Chamber adapters use the rifling in your firearm to stabilize the bullet. They are excellent tools for target practice and for downing small game, eliminating unnecessary meat destruction and the recoil of full power cartridges. Our adapters are made for rifles and, where indicated by the asterisk (*), the Thompson Contender. Adapters for the Thompson Contender ONLY are indicated by "TC" (they cannot be made with offset firing pin plug).
Dina Arms Corporation - "Turn your shotgun into a rifle instantly!"
The Dina Adapter is a converter tube that allows you to use your shotgun for a rifle. Imagine how much more use you could get out of your shotgun when you can simply place a Dina Adapter into it like a regular shot-shell and shoot any type of ammo that suits your purpose.
“Turn your shotgun into a rifle instantly!”, When you can utilize our adapters, you will save money because it will reduce your need for multiple guns and you can shoot any type of ammo you need.
The Dina Adapter is a 2.5” long converter tube that is rifled to improve the accuracy of the shot. The ammo never touches the barrel as it travels down the center.
Great Uses for the Dina Adapter:
HUNTING
PROTECTION
TARGET SHOOTING
SHOT GUN TRAINING
No FFL Required for Purchase!
“Turn your shotgun into a rifle instantly!”, When you can utilize our adapters, you will save money because it will reduce your need for multiple guns and you can shoot any type of ammo you need.
The Dina Adapter is a 2.5” long converter tube that is rifled to improve the accuracy of the shot. The ammo never touches the barrel as it travels down the center.
Great Uses for the Dina Adapter:
HUNTING
PROTECTION
TARGET SHOOTING
SHOT GUN TRAINING
No FFL Required for Purchase!
Tweaking the NEF and the Ultra H&R rifles for improved accuracy.
Tweaking the NEF and the Ultra H&R rifles for improved accuracy.
H&R Ultra 25-06, 26" Barrel, 4-12x40 Bushnell Banner scope, Weaver med Rings on H&R rail base.
Here is a list of things you can do with simple tools. There is no way of knowing that they will improve accuracy in all Handi rifles but they did in the 25-06 Ultra I have. There is only so much that can be done with such an economy gun at home.
1.) The forearm.
Shape a piece of 1/8" thick rubber to fit the recess in the barrel groove where the screw goes that holds the forearm in place. Glue it in place with epoxy. Drill a hole through the rubber with a Dremel tool the size of the barrel stud. Tighten the forearm in place and count the number of turns you make when turning the screw good and tight. You should now have a space under the forearm. With a pencil mark the sides of the stock for an even gap.
Take off the forearm and remove the wood up to the pencil mark. Install the forearm and check the gap and the hinge fit. Remove wood screws that hold the hinge cap in place. Fill the screw holes with glued in dowels and sand flush. Fit the cap tightly to the action by light sanding and checking with lipstick.
Install the forearm with light screw pressure and wedge the cap with 4 thin wood wedges snug against the action apply glue to the wedges on the forearm side only and line things up and let it set up.
Remove the forearm and cap without disturbing the wedges, apply steel bed to the wood and cap and put it back together and align the two pieces. Tighten the forearm screw and let it set.
Clean up and install the two wood screws in new aligned holes. See my new Gap Fix Page before going any further. You must have a tight breech before fitting the forearm tight.
Sand the inside of the cap for the Steel bed to bond. Apply release agent to the front of the action and barrel and bed the cap solid to the barrel. The forearm screw is now tightened to the same tension as before. Remove forearm when Steel Bed has set. Steel-Bed by Brownell.
Install forearm again and tighten. Place the forearm tip in a padded vise. Place a pull scale on the barrel in front of the forearm tip and pull up 15 lbs and slide a small wedge between the barrel and the forearm and mark it. Put some glue on the wedge and drive the wedge in to the mark and let it set. Now you have 15lbs pressure on the barrel in time it will be less than that after the foam is compressed.
Remove the forearm and wipe the barrel with past wax and spray the bottom of the barrel groove with DOW Great Stuff foam and put the gun back together. The foam will expand for three days. Remove the forearm, clean up edges and remove the small wedge, reinstall the forearm and you are done. The foam will effectively dampen vibration and it is easy to remove if you like to try a complete free float later. I tried this on a M70 Win 300 Mag and it seems to work well. My name for this is, a dampened free float.
2.) Remove lateral play from the underlug.
Take some exact measures of the lug just behind the hinge pin and at the end of the lug. In the action well you will see four raised strips where the under lug supposed to fit against. I found the strips are too far apart to make contact with the underlug. You have to measure the distance between the four strips to find out how much steel shim stock you have to solder in place. The shims after soldered in place on the lug are then honed to fit snug. If you have a selection of steel shim stock close to the right thickness, fitting is much less work.
I also bedded the barrel between the hinge pin and the standing breech with Devcon Epoxy Steel for a total fit this will take care of any vibration above the under-lug. This provided noticeable additional accuracy. Devcon Steel must have the steel primed with a light 1-5 epoxy before Devcon is applied. Devcon Steel is too dry and won't stick too good with out a thin bonding layer. So far it has not come loose.
Note: Remove the ejector and spring when soldering.
Do only one set at a time. Some one with a fine wire TIG welder could put on a four beats in no time. The honing and fitting is a very slow job, but it takes out most of the vibration created by barrel torque. In my rifle this stopped nearly all-horizontal stringing. The big ailment is vertical stringing caused by barrel latch. The barrel latch itself is a very poor design, because it slides under uplift pressure and it is only retained by a compressed coil spring, which in my opinion is not strong enough.
It has been reported that Handi rifles group better from the bench when supported directly under the hinge pin.
The reason is that the barrel acts as a fulcrum and put more pressure on the barrel latch and helps to keep it from siding down. If----- the fit is perfect? The extra force is easily calculated. With the 26" barrel and scope the unsupported weight forward of the hinge pin is about 2.25lbs on my rifle. The ratio is 1: 8.4 so 8.4x2.25= 18.9 lbs is the extra pressure against the latch. But this same force can also make the latch slide rather than retain it, especially if any lubricant is present.
I would never shoot a rifle from a bench in that manner. Nor would I use such a support in field positions. Offhand perhaps with your elbow jammed into you belt.
3.) Trigger Pull.
At this point we do the trigger by following the directions laid out on the below web site. I did lighten the trigger return spring by one coil to about 9oz because I wanted a 24oz trigger. If you are happy with a 3lbs trigger you do not need to do this. Read the direction careful and then decide whether you can or want o do this work.
http://www.perkloafm.com/
Reinstalling of the trigger group is much easier with a piece of wood 3/8x1/2 wedged between the latch- lever and the cocked hammer. This will hold both the hammer and the latch in the proper position for removal and installing the trigger group / guard.
If you go down to a very light trigger you have to lighten the return spring to the point where you just have return. You want as little pull weight as possible on that spring. Be careful and snip only a 1/4 coil at a time. This assures you when a trigger breaks at 1.5 lbs that it follows through all the way. Otherwise you get misfires because of the safety bar is sliding out from under the hammer. This of course is contrary to good trigger action where you try to avoid trigger over travel or backlash as it is called. The safety bar is one of these cover your ass designs to avoid legal actions. A rebounding hammer and a halve cock would have been much simpler, less parts, better trigger and perfect for a single shot with a hammer.
While having the action all apart I also removed the barrel latch and stoned the front of it. I put some lipstick on the front edges and pushed the latch in place and removed all the high spots from the latch for maximum forward movement. I beefed up the latch compression spring by placing a smaller diameter spring inside the big spring.
In the bottom of the hole in the trigger guard, where the latch spring fits in, I put in two .032"alu disks to elevate the spring for a bit more compression.
Note: I have since replaced the latch spring with a heavier one with .036" spring wire. This is .006" larger wire.
The inside spring or the extra one I put in is also stronger. The two new springs will add more pressure against the latch. A .040" spring wire would perhaps eliminate the inside spring? The new springs should be as long as possible to provide max compression. I removed the two washers in the spring hole and fitted the springs 1.5 coils longer. This is a substantial increase in spring compression against the latch. I had two tries at it.
4.) Latch engagement.
Under high-pressure the sloping latch recess in the under lug let the latch slide in some cases enough to open the action. A one thou slide will move the impact of the bullet by more than one inch. I have seen as much as 0.004"
You can tell when you look at the top of the standing breech and the barrel end there is a gap you can measure with a feeler gage after you fired a shot. The sloping bottom of the latch recess and the radiused bottom of the latch don't make a very good match, like a round peg in a square hole.
Any oil on the latch or the latch recess will make the latch move. It is most important to keep these areas totally oil free. The chamber should also be kept oil free by using a bore guide. A bore guide is easily made by soldering two fires cases together and then cut the end off for the cleaning rod to enter.
In my case the latch only partially entered the recess. Coat the recess with a thin layer of lip stick to see how far it goes in and stone away some metal on the forward part only until the latch fully engages. The rear edge of the recess is lower because it is machined straight, while the latch travels in an arc. Do not remove any metal there.
You have to remove the trigger guard so you can view the latch from the rear. You need your two trigger punches and your slave pin. With the latch pushed forward with a dowel you can measure the gap between the bottom of the latch and the top of the rear edge of the recess.
With a flat 3/16" pin punch you need to peen the lower edge of the recess up by what ever gap you got 3-4 thou or more. You have to peen enough so the latch will just clear the edge. You will be able to see just what you got from behind; real close is the way to go. What we are trying to do is to create a radiused latch seat to keep the latch from sliding off. Now you can put everything back together.
Use a piece of wood 3/8x1/2 and slide it between the latch lever and the cocked hammer. This will hold both the hammer and the latch in the proper position for removal and installing the trigger group/guard. Install the trigger group from the rear with the latch spring against the latch, push forward and put the rear pin first pressing the slave pin out at the same time.
Clean the latch recess with acetone, and mix a little Steel Bed 40% hardener and 60% steel mix. Directions say 50/50 but I made it a bit heavier on the steel solids. Put release agent on the bottom of the latch and close the action with the latch leaver depressed and then let the latch close slow and let it set in close position for 12h. Remember this is only an abracive coat and should be a remedy for poor fitting latch
Open the latch the next day, clean up and put it back together and let it cure for a week. This will give you a concave latch seat which allows very little latch movement if any. I reduced my 3 shot groups from as much as four inches to 1-9/16 and with some bullets less than 3/4" but most loads will shoot between 1" to 1-1/2 at 100 meters. This is about, as good as accuracy will get, considering the poor barrel, throat and chamber dimension.
Red dimensions are the proper size.
Chamber at base .472 (.470)
Chamber at shoulder .444 (.441)
Chamber neck diameter .292 (.489)
Loaded neck diameter 0.2854
Radial clearance 0.0035 in neck with a loaded shell (.0015 would be much better.)
Groove width 0.100 (Micro groove)
Land width 0.048
Land height 0.002 (Micro groove rifling?)
Land diameter .0.2545 (.253)
Throat diameter is 0.259 (.2575) at transition and 0.2582 (.257) at the start of rifling.
Throat length 0.265 (free bore) as close as I can measure. (.080)
Bore at muzzle 0.2582 x-x and 0.2585 y-y. (Both .257)
Handloading the 25-06 Ultra and sticky cases.
Polishing the chamber helps with sticky cases but not 100%. To a large degree the ejector system is at fault. Except for a stronger ejector spring there is not much that can be done without spending a lot of money on a rifle that is not worth much. But take the ejector out and stone all flats then polish with Dremel felt wheel and #600 grit this makes a difference.
New cases seem to eject better than fire formed cases, nevertheless the below pictured manual notch will get the case out without much delay.
With hand loads the cases start to stick as chamber pressure increases and with powders that have a high initial pressure spike such as N150 or similar powders with that sort of burning rate. The two powders that have proofed to be best suitable with bullet weights of 85gr to 117gr are H1000 and Reloder 22.
My advice is to use the slowest powders for the particular cartridge to reduce or lengthen the initial pressure spike. I would follow this with all high-pressure loads in any caliber with a case head of .470" produced by H&R.
In order to reach velocities close to published loading data for 24" barrels the powder charges had to be increased by as much as 2.0gr to reach velocities with the 26" barrel of the H&R Ultra and not quite equal to published loading data for 24" barrels. This is because of the over size bore, throat and chamber that this rifle has. Of course with the generous over dimensions comes very mediocre accuracy with most bullets and loads. The .002" shallow lands are another item that lowers pressure. In my barrel the bullet would barely engrave only if perfectly centered.
Side by side tests with a Rugerr#1, 26" barrel and 58.0gr H1000 with 100 gr Hornady produced 2955 for the H&R and 3056 for the Ruger with the same load. This is by no means conclusive, but it gives some idea of the barrel configuration. No matter what you do with a poor barrel you are out for lunch.
It has been suggested to shoot cast bullets and size them to suit the barrel diameter, but that is not my idea of a 25-06. There are much better calibers to shoot cast bullets with a lot more authority.
I did not test the Ruger with the 117gr bullets because there is no real need to use them in that gun. The reason for the 117gr in the H&R was to get into the lands by .005" for better alignment of the bullet and it proofed to give the best accuracy.
With 58.0 gr of H1000 and an 117g bullet produced 2914 ft/sec at about 50kcup, and no sticky cases. 57.0gr shot the better 3 shot groups with only a slight reduction in velocity.
The cartridge case demands a .003" headspace. Due to stretching, all fired cases should have the shoulder set back to achieve this headspace lest the cases protrude beyond the chamber face. A Lee collet die is of no use for this rifle because is does not set the shoulder back. Also it works great in the Ruger#1.
All handloading was done with a Lee F.L sizing die, with the shoulder opened to .442 from .436 with the expander plug removed. 19 RWS 30-06 sized to 25 cal and all cases were partially outside neck reamed. These cases fitted better for the large chamber neck and reduced radial clearance a bit.
To give you a better idea of what you can expect from a Handi barrel you should slug the barrel and the throat and or make a chamber cast including the throat/freebore to ascertain dimensions. In this way you can complain to H&R and demand satisfaction if the barrel is off spec like mine.
One thing about the Handi rifle, it is easy and safe to handle and looks quite good with that laminated stock. Too bad the factory does not put in a bit more effort to produce a better shooting rifle. With to days machinery there is no real good reason for sloppy work. Quality control is not really that expensive when you consider the financial benefits and less recall.
Here are the results with the factory Rem 100 gr PSP in the 25-06 Ultra. Fired two three shot groups at 100m 1-1/4" for the first one and 1-1/16" for the second one. This is as good as the best hand loads I tried. I never had a rifle that would shoot as good with factory loads as my best hand loads.
Alas a disappointing average velocity of 3188ft/sec compared to the Ruger #1 at 3297 ft/sec, from the same box of ammo, well we know why that is. All my hand loads showed the same 100 ft lower velocities, and stoking in more coal is not the answer. Accuracy will not improve with higher pressure in the chamber. None of the factory loads got stuck.
I also toke a factory shell apart and weight the powder, which looks like IMR4350 and weighs 50.5gr. Loading manuals lists load very close to that velocity. I gave the IMR 4350 a try and worked up some loads. Starting with 49.5gr for 2868 ft/sec adding one grain at a time to 53.5gr for 3119ft/sec. Non of the five loads showed good accuracy, all about 2" or a bit more. All loads were made with Rem 9-1/2 primers and 100gr Rem PSP bullets.
For load testing I used a 36x B&L target scope. All my hand loads were made with Moly coated bullets, a reduction in powder charges is advised with uncoated bullets. The loads I used are safe in my rifle only and they should not be construed as a loading recommendation.
Manual extractor notch for stuck cases on Ultra 25-06. Notice the poor edge on the ejector.
I made the above notch easily with a needle file and a Dremel tool and alleviated frustration with stuck cases.
Remove the barrel plug the chamber and tape up the ejector and any openings, to keep the grit and steel shavings out of the barrel and other places. I should not have to say this but it happened that someone got steel shavings and grit everywhere it should not be.
Here is a discription of how I do the notch.
To do a good job on the extractor notch you need a set of needle files and a Dremel high speed tool with a thin 1/8"stone wheel and a cutting disk.
Mark the notch and make a protection sleeve from a fired case that sticks out from the chamber. Cut away halve of the case on the top end and stick into the chamber opposite the notch, Without that sleeve you will damage the chamber. With the cutting disk you cut into the edge, square and straight, remove the center between the cuts with the thin grinding wheel and finish off with a square needle file. With this file you can shape the sides and the bottom. There is not much room to move the file, so just take your time.
Put a patch in the chamber and pack modeling clay or chewing gum around
H&R Ultra 25-06, 26" Barrel, 4-12x40 Bushnell Banner scope, Weaver med Rings on H&R rail base.
Here is a list of things you can do with simple tools. There is no way of knowing that they will improve accuracy in all Handi rifles but they did in the 25-06 Ultra I have. There is only so much that can be done with such an economy gun at home.
1.) The forearm.
Shape a piece of 1/8" thick rubber to fit the recess in the barrel groove where the screw goes that holds the forearm in place. Glue it in place with epoxy. Drill a hole through the rubber with a Dremel tool the size of the barrel stud. Tighten the forearm in place and count the number of turns you make when turning the screw good and tight. You should now have a space under the forearm. With a pencil mark the sides of the stock for an even gap.
Take off the forearm and remove the wood up to the pencil mark. Install the forearm and check the gap and the hinge fit. Remove wood screws that hold the hinge cap in place. Fill the screw holes with glued in dowels and sand flush. Fit the cap tightly to the action by light sanding and checking with lipstick.
Install the forearm with light screw pressure and wedge the cap with 4 thin wood wedges snug against the action apply glue to the wedges on the forearm side only and line things up and let it set up.
Remove the forearm and cap without disturbing the wedges, apply steel bed to the wood and cap and put it back together and align the two pieces. Tighten the forearm screw and let it set.
Clean up and install the two wood screws in new aligned holes. See my new Gap Fix Page before going any further. You must have a tight breech before fitting the forearm tight.
Sand the inside of the cap for the Steel bed to bond. Apply release agent to the front of the action and barrel and bed the cap solid to the barrel. The forearm screw is now tightened to the same tension as before. Remove forearm when Steel Bed has set. Steel-Bed by Brownell.
Install forearm again and tighten. Place the forearm tip in a padded vise. Place a pull scale on the barrel in front of the forearm tip and pull up 15 lbs and slide a small wedge between the barrel and the forearm and mark it. Put some glue on the wedge and drive the wedge in to the mark and let it set. Now you have 15lbs pressure on the barrel in time it will be less than that after the foam is compressed.
Remove the forearm and wipe the barrel with past wax and spray the bottom of the barrel groove with DOW Great Stuff foam and put the gun back together. The foam will expand for three days. Remove the forearm, clean up edges and remove the small wedge, reinstall the forearm and you are done. The foam will effectively dampen vibration and it is easy to remove if you like to try a complete free float later. I tried this on a M70 Win 300 Mag and it seems to work well. My name for this is, a dampened free float.
2.) Remove lateral play from the underlug.
Take some exact measures of the lug just behind the hinge pin and at the end of the lug. In the action well you will see four raised strips where the under lug supposed to fit against. I found the strips are too far apart to make contact with the underlug. You have to measure the distance between the four strips to find out how much steel shim stock you have to solder in place. The shims after soldered in place on the lug are then honed to fit snug. If you have a selection of steel shim stock close to the right thickness, fitting is much less work.
I also bedded the barrel between the hinge pin and the standing breech with Devcon Epoxy Steel for a total fit this will take care of any vibration above the under-lug. This provided noticeable additional accuracy. Devcon Steel must have the steel primed with a light 1-5 epoxy before Devcon is applied. Devcon Steel is too dry and won't stick too good with out a thin bonding layer. So far it has not come loose.
Note: Remove the ejector and spring when soldering.
Do only one set at a time. Some one with a fine wire TIG welder could put on a four beats in no time. The honing and fitting is a very slow job, but it takes out most of the vibration created by barrel torque. In my rifle this stopped nearly all-horizontal stringing. The big ailment is vertical stringing caused by barrel latch. The barrel latch itself is a very poor design, because it slides under uplift pressure and it is only retained by a compressed coil spring, which in my opinion is not strong enough.
It has been reported that Handi rifles group better from the bench when supported directly under the hinge pin.
The reason is that the barrel acts as a fulcrum and put more pressure on the barrel latch and helps to keep it from siding down. If----- the fit is perfect? The extra force is easily calculated. With the 26" barrel and scope the unsupported weight forward of the hinge pin is about 2.25lbs on my rifle. The ratio is 1: 8.4 so 8.4x2.25= 18.9 lbs is the extra pressure against the latch. But this same force can also make the latch slide rather than retain it, especially if any lubricant is present.
I would never shoot a rifle from a bench in that manner. Nor would I use such a support in field positions. Offhand perhaps with your elbow jammed into you belt.
3.) Trigger Pull.
At this point we do the trigger by following the directions laid out on the below web site. I did lighten the trigger return spring by one coil to about 9oz because I wanted a 24oz trigger. If you are happy with a 3lbs trigger you do not need to do this. Read the direction careful and then decide whether you can or want o do this work.
http://www.perkloafm.com/
Reinstalling of the trigger group is much easier with a piece of wood 3/8x1/2 wedged between the latch- lever and the cocked hammer. This will hold both the hammer and the latch in the proper position for removal and installing the trigger group / guard.
If you go down to a very light trigger you have to lighten the return spring to the point where you just have return. You want as little pull weight as possible on that spring. Be careful and snip only a 1/4 coil at a time. This assures you when a trigger breaks at 1.5 lbs that it follows through all the way. Otherwise you get misfires because of the safety bar is sliding out from under the hammer. This of course is contrary to good trigger action where you try to avoid trigger over travel or backlash as it is called. The safety bar is one of these cover your ass designs to avoid legal actions. A rebounding hammer and a halve cock would have been much simpler, less parts, better trigger and perfect for a single shot with a hammer.
While having the action all apart I also removed the barrel latch and stoned the front of it. I put some lipstick on the front edges and pushed the latch in place and removed all the high spots from the latch for maximum forward movement. I beefed up the latch compression spring by placing a smaller diameter spring inside the big spring.
In the bottom of the hole in the trigger guard, where the latch spring fits in, I put in two .032"alu disks to elevate the spring for a bit more compression.
Note: I have since replaced the latch spring with a heavier one with .036" spring wire. This is .006" larger wire.
The inside spring or the extra one I put in is also stronger. The two new springs will add more pressure against the latch. A .040" spring wire would perhaps eliminate the inside spring? The new springs should be as long as possible to provide max compression. I removed the two washers in the spring hole and fitted the springs 1.5 coils longer. This is a substantial increase in spring compression against the latch. I had two tries at it.
4.) Latch engagement.
Under high-pressure the sloping latch recess in the under lug let the latch slide in some cases enough to open the action. A one thou slide will move the impact of the bullet by more than one inch. I have seen as much as 0.004"
You can tell when you look at the top of the standing breech and the barrel end there is a gap you can measure with a feeler gage after you fired a shot. The sloping bottom of the latch recess and the radiused bottom of the latch don't make a very good match, like a round peg in a square hole.
Any oil on the latch or the latch recess will make the latch move. It is most important to keep these areas totally oil free. The chamber should also be kept oil free by using a bore guide. A bore guide is easily made by soldering two fires cases together and then cut the end off for the cleaning rod to enter.
In my case the latch only partially entered the recess. Coat the recess with a thin layer of lip stick to see how far it goes in and stone away some metal on the forward part only until the latch fully engages. The rear edge of the recess is lower because it is machined straight, while the latch travels in an arc. Do not remove any metal there.
You have to remove the trigger guard so you can view the latch from the rear. You need your two trigger punches and your slave pin. With the latch pushed forward with a dowel you can measure the gap between the bottom of the latch and the top of the rear edge of the recess.
With a flat 3/16" pin punch you need to peen the lower edge of the recess up by what ever gap you got 3-4 thou or more. You have to peen enough so the latch will just clear the edge. You will be able to see just what you got from behind; real close is the way to go. What we are trying to do is to create a radiused latch seat to keep the latch from sliding off. Now you can put everything back together.
Use a piece of wood 3/8x1/2 and slide it between the latch lever and the cocked hammer. This will hold both the hammer and the latch in the proper position for removal and installing the trigger group/guard. Install the trigger group from the rear with the latch spring against the latch, push forward and put the rear pin first pressing the slave pin out at the same time.
Clean the latch recess with acetone, and mix a little Steel Bed 40% hardener and 60% steel mix. Directions say 50/50 but I made it a bit heavier on the steel solids. Put release agent on the bottom of the latch and close the action with the latch leaver depressed and then let the latch close slow and let it set in close position for 12h. Remember this is only an abracive coat and should be a remedy for poor fitting latch
Open the latch the next day, clean up and put it back together and let it cure for a week. This will give you a concave latch seat which allows very little latch movement if any. I reduced my 3 shot groups from as much as four inches to 1-9/16 and with some bullets less than 3/4" but most loads will shoot between 1" to 1-1/2 at 100 meters. This is about, as good as accuracy will get, considering the poor barrel, throat and chamber dimension.
Red dimensions are the proper size.
Chamber at base .472 (.470)
Chamber at shoulder .444 (.441)
Chamber neck diameter .292 (.489)
Loaded neck diameter 0.2854
Radial clearance 0.0035 in neck with a loaded shell (.0015 would be much better.)
Groove width 0.100 (Micro groove)
Land width 0.048
Land height 0.002 (Micro groove rifling?)
Land diameter .0.2545 (.253)
Throat diameter is 0.259 (.2575) at transition and 0.2582 (.257) at the start of rifling.
Throat length 0.265 (free bore) as close as I can measure. (.080)
Bore at muzzle 0.2582 x-x and 0.2585 y-y. (Both .257)
Handloading the 25-06 Ultra and sticky cases.
Polishing the chamber helps with sticky cases but not 100%. To a large degree the ejector system is at fault. Except for a stronger ejector spring there is not much that can be done without spending a lot of money on a rifle that is not worth much. But take the ejector out and stone all flats then polish with Dremel felt wheel and #600 grit this makes a difference.
New cases seem to eject better than fire formed cases, nevertheless the below pictured manual notch will get the case out without much delay.
With hand loads the cases start to stick as chamber pressure increases and with powders that have a high initial pressure spike such as N150 or similar powders with that sort of burning rate. The two powders that have proofed to be best suitable with bullet weights of 85gr to 117gr are H1000 and Reloder 22.
My advice is to use the slowest powders for the particular cartridge to reduce or lengthen the initial pressure spike. I would follow this with all high-pressure loads in any caliber with a case head of .470" produced by H&R.
In order to reach velocities close to published loading data for 24" barrels the powder charges had to be increased by as much as 2.0gr to reach velocities with the 26" barrel of the H&R Ultra and not quite equal to published loading data for 24" barrels. This is because of the over size bore, throat and chamber that this rifle has. Of course with the generous over dimensions comes very mediocre accuracy with most bullets and loads. The .002" shallow lands are another item that lowers pressure. In my barrel the bullet would barely engrave only if perfectly centered.
Side by side tests with a Rugerr#1, 26" barrel and 58.0gr H1000 with 100 gr Hornady produced 2955 for the H&R and 3056 for the Ruger with the same load. This is by no means conclusive, but it gives some idea of the barrel configuration. No matter what you do with a poor barrel you are out for lunch.
It has been suggested to shoot cast bullets and size them to suit the barrel diameter, but that is not my idea of a 25-06. There are much better calibers to shoot cast bullets with a lot more authority.
I did not test the Ruger with the 117gr bullets because there is no real need to use them in that gun. The reason for the 117gr in the H&R was to get into the lands by .005" for better alignment of the bullet and it proofed to give the best accuracy.
With 58.0 gr of H1000 and an 117g bullet produced 2914 ft/sec at about 50kcup, and no sticky cases. 57.0gr shot the better 3 shot groups with only a slight reduction in velocity.
The cartridge case demands a .003" headspace. Due to stretching, all fired cases should have the shoulder set back to achieve this headspace lest the cases protrude beyond the chamber face. A Lee collet die is of no use for this rifle because is does not set the shoulder back. Also it works great in the Ruger#1.
All handloading was done with a Lee F.L sizing die, with the shoulder opened to .442 from .436 with the expander plug removed. 19 RWS 30-06 sized to 25 cal and all cases were partially outside neck reamed. These cases fitted better for the large chamber neck and reduced radial clearance a bit.
To give you a better idea of what you can expect from a Handi barrel you should slug the barrel and the throat and or make a chamber cast including the throat/freebore to ascertain dimensions. In this way you can complain to H&R and demand satisfaction if the barrel is off spec like mine.
One thing about the Handi rifle, it is easy and safe to handle and looks quite good with that laminated stock. Too bad the factory does not put in a bit more effort to produce a better shooting rifle. With to days machinery there is no real good reason for sloppy work. Quality control is not really that expensive when you consider the financial benefits and less recall.
Here are the results with the factory Rem 100 gr PSP in the 25-06 Ultra. Fired two three shot groups at 100m 1-1/4" for the first one and 1-1/16" for the second one. This is as good as the best hand loads I tried. I never had a rifle that would shoot as good with factory loads as my best hand loads.
Alas a disappointing average velocity of 3188ft/sec compared to the Ruger #1 at 3297 ft/sec, from the same box of ammo, well we know why that is. All my hand loads showed the same 100 ft lower velocities, and stoking in more coal is not the answer. Accuracy will not improve with higher pressure in the chamber. None of the factory loads got stuck.
I also toke a factory shell apart and weight the powder, which looks like IMR4350 and weighs 50.5gr. Loading manuals lists load very close to that velocity. I gave the IMR 4350 a try and worked up some loads. Starting with 49.5gr for 2868 ft/sec adding one grain at a time to 53.5gr for 3119ft/sec. Non of the five loads showed good accuracy, all about 2" or a bit more. All loads were made with Rem 9-1/2 primers and 100gr Rem PSP bullets.
For load testing I used a 36x B&L target scope. All my hand loads were made with Moly coated bullets, a reduction in powder charges is advised with uncoated bullets. The loads I used are safe in my rifle only and they should not be construed as a loading recommendation.
Manual extractor notch for stuck cases on Ultra 25-06. Notice the poor edge on the ejector.
I made the above notch easily with a needle file and a Dremel tool and alleviated frustration with stuck cases.
Remove the barrel plug the chamber and tape up the ejector and any openings, to keep the grit and steel shavings out of the barrel and other places. I should not have to say this but it happened that someone got steel shavings and grit everywhere it should not be.
Here is a discription of how I do the notch.
To do a good job on the extractor notch you need a set of needle files and a Dremel high speed tool with a thin 1/8"stone wheel and a cutting disk.
Mark the notch and make a protection sleeve from a fired case that sticks out from the chamber. Cut away halve of the case on the top end and stick into the chamber opposite the notch, Without that sleeve you will damage the chamber. With the cutting disk you cut into the edge, square and straight, remove the center between the cuts with the thin grinding wheel and finish off with a square needle file. With this file you can shape the sides and the bottom. There is not much room to move the file, so just take your time.
Put a patch in the chamber and pack modeling clay or chewing gum around
Reduced Loads Without Reloading
Reduced Loads Without Reloading
By Jim Berndt, ©2006
I love shooting my surplus rifles. The abundance of inexpensive ammunition for many
former military rifles is one of the really great advantages of
collecting and shooting the old warhorses. Although I reload for
many of my sporting rifles, I do not bother for some of my
surplus rifles – ammunition is inexpensive and if I need a few
hunting rounds I can buy a single box of commercial
ammunition.
However, there are some occasions where it would be nice to
have some reduced loads of cartridges that I don’t normally hand
load. I like to do some close range plinking just to practice sight
acquisition and trigger pull; I also am trying to transition my son
from his first .22 to shooting some centerfire rifles. Both of
these tasks are well-suited to reduced rifle loads. With reduced
rifle loads I even will dispatch the occasional pest or take a
squirrel or two. But, if you are not a reloader or if you choose
not to reload for a particular cartridge, where do you find
reduced loads?
A solution I have found for this
problem is the Hammond Game
Getter. This device is
manufactured by Brian Hammond
of Alberta, Canada and is available
from him (B. Hammond, Box 41061, Petrolia PO,
Edmonton, Alberta, Canada T6J 6M7;
www.gamegetter.ca). I was intrigued when I first saw the
Game Getter, so I contacted Brian and ordered one in 8x57
for my Yugo M48 Mauser.
My Game Getter arrived in a handy little plastic box about
the size of a cigarette pack. The box contained a modified
8x57 case, a small sizing die for sizing round balls or
buck shot to the
appropriate diameter, a few lead balls of the
appropriate size and an empty compartment for
power loads (more on these later). The whole
package is very compact and easily slips in your
pocket.
The actual Game Getter device is a modified
cartridge case. The brass head of the case has been
My M48 Yugoslavian Mauser
chambered in 8x57
The Game Getter with accessories in its
case
Remington power loads for power-actuated tools
replaced by (what appears to be) a stainless steel insert. The power for the Game Getter
“cartridge” comes from a blank .22 cartridge – the type commonly marketed by
Remington for power actuated tools (called a “power load”) not the type of blanks used
in starter pistols. The power loads come in a variety of strengths, indicated by their color
with the mildest charges colored grey, the next strongest brown, then green, and finally
yellow, the most powerful.
To load the Game Getter, a power load is placed in the stainless steel base, which holds
the power load off-center so that the centerfire rifle firing pin will strike the rim of the
power load and set off the charge. The projectile is a suitably size round ball (a little
larger than the bore diameter) which has been pushed through the tapered swage provided
with the Game Getter. This sized round ball is pressed into the mouth of the modified
cartridge case by finger pressure; and the Game Getter is ready to fire.
Since I am using my Game Getter in an 8x57 rifle (0.323” bore diameter), 00 Buck Shot
(0.33” diameter) is an appropriate projectile to size for my rifle. Although the
manufacturer did not suggest it, I lightly lubricated the buck shot with a dab of Lee
Resizing Lubricant before pushing the buck shot pellets
through the die. After sizing, the diameter of ten randomly
selected pellets averaged 0.3227” with a standard deviation
of only 0.0002”. Although not really necessary for the bullet
velocity of my planned tests, I also lightly lubricated the
sized pellets with Lee Liquid Alox to minimize the chance of
leading the barrel.
The modified cartridge case I received was a bit large for the
chamber of my M48. I was able to close the bolt with some
difficulty and after getting the bolt closed I was concerned
about getting the cartridge out. However, after several
firings the cartridge chambered noticeably easier and I had
no further chambering problems. The manufacturer suggests
that the lower power loads are the most accurate. After
The base of the Game Getter modified cartridge showing how the power load is inserted, and struck by the
rifle firing pin.
Sized buck shot pressed into the
mouth of the Game Getter modified
cartridge.
looking at the velocity data for the Game Getter in several chamberings on the
manufacturer’s website, I figured that either the brown or the green power loads would
give me the 700 to 900 feet per second (fps) velocity that I wanted.
Accuracy testing of the Game Getter in my M48 took place on a warm (for Northern
Wisconsin) November afternoon. The Game Getter is intended, according to the
manufacturer, for ranges of 25 yards or less. I chose two distances for accuracy testing,
one at 85 feet, a bit longer than the maximum range, and one at 45 feet, a typical squirrel
shooting distance. In my testing, I was trying to evaluate the practical accuracy of the
Game Getter rather than the full potential
accuracy. As a result, I only used a forearm
rest when shooting, rather than a bench rest
and sandbags. I wanted to know if I would be
able to shoot the Game Getter accurately
enough in the field to reliably pot small game.
One of the possible uses of the Game Getter
(where allowed by law) is the ability to swap
the Game Getter for a full-power hunting load
if small game presents itself while big game
hunting. With this idea in mind, the sights of
my M48, which are set for my hunting ammunition, were not adjusted for my tests of the
Game Getter. I wanted to see how far below the point of aim the shots from the Game
Getter would hit at my test distances.
Both the green power loads and the brown power loads were tested at 85 feet. Both
power levels of power loads produced reasonably good groups on the “long-range”
targets. The lower velocity brown power loads produced noticeably tighter groups,
averaging a little over an inch for five shots. I noticed an occasional flyer at 85 feet,
usually associated with a power load that sounded
quieter than most. Groups powered by the green power
loads clustered about 4.1 inches below the point of aim
while groups from the brown power loads were about
4.4 inches below the
point of aim. The
difference in velocity
between the two
different powered
power loads, as shown
by the amount of
relative bullet drop,
does not appear to be significant at this distance
When the range was decreased to 45 feet the brown
loads showed that they were indeed the power source of
choice for my 8x57. At this closer distance the groups
"Field rest" used in testing.
Group shot at 85 feet with brown
power loads
Group shot at 45 feet with brown power
loads
began to resemble a ragged hole. Typical group size at this range with the brown power
loads was about one inch or less and the groups were about 2.5 inches below the point of
aim. I am confident that in a rifle with more accuracy potential than my M48 and with a
good bench rest, the Game Getter could produce tighter groups than shown by my testing.
However, a one-inch group at 45 feet makes me confident that I could reliably head-shoot
squirrels within that range. In some informal practice after testing I tried holding over the
target bulls eye about 2.5 inches (about one and a half squirrel heads) and was able to
consistently place shots in the center ring of the target.
Bullet velocity 3 feet from the muzzle was tested for bullets powered by both the green
power loads and the brown power loads. Ten shots with the green power loads produced
an average velocity of 974 fps with a standard deviation of 21 fps. Another ten shots
with the brown power loads gave an average velocity of 792 fps with a standard deviation
of 39 fps. The lead Buck Shot I was using for bullets in these test had an average weight
of 52.5 grains.
While the 00 buckshot pellets fired in the M48 have been very slightly elongated during
sizing, some simple ballistic calculations can be made using the G2 ballistic coefficient
for 00 buckshot of 0.032. At 974 fps at the muzzle the green power loads produce a little
more than 103 foot/pounds of energy at the muzzle with the green power loads and 72
foot/pounds with the brown power loads. As a standard of comparison, Federal’s
American Eagle .22 ammunition leaves the barrel at a stated 1,260 fps with a muzzle
energy of 141 ft/lbs
Velocity (fps) Energy (ft/lbs) Bullet Drop
Load (in)
Muzzle 25 Yds. Muzzle 25 Yds. 25 Yds.
Game Getter - Green Load 947 857 103 84 1.3
Game Getter - Brown Load 792 729 72 61 2.3
Federal American Eagle .22 LR 1,260 1,193 140 126 0.7
Bullet Drop
8x57 Hammond Game Getter vs Federal .22 LR
-2.5
-2.0
-1.5
-1.0
-0.5
0.0
0 25 50 75
Range (feet)
Drop From Muzzle (inches)
Federal American Eagle .22 LR
Brown Load
Green Load
My limited tests have convinced me that the
Hammond Game Getter is all it is billed to be: an
easy to use, accurate, field-assembled cartridge
suitable for reduced velocity plinking, the taking
of close range small game with a big game rifle.
The workmanship of the modified casing is
excellent and looks like it will last longer than me.
This little device has earned a place in my range
box and I intend to keep it handy when hunting
with my M48.
While my testing was conducted with the 8x57 Hammond Game Getter, the
manufacturer’s website lists 91 other standard chamberings with a note that wildcat
chamberings can be provided upon request. I think my next trials will include my
7mm-08 and .223...or perhaps my .45-70…
Copyright ©2006 by Jim Berndt, all rights reserved
By Jim Berndt, ©2006
I love shooting my surplus rifles. The abundance of inexpensive ammunition for many
former military rifles is one of the really great advantages of
collecting and shooting the old warhorses. Although I reload for
many of my sporting rifles, I do not bother for some of my
surplus rifles – ammunition is inexpensive and if I need a few
hunting rounds I can buy a single box of commercial
ammunition.
However, there are some occasions where it would be nice to
have some reduced loads of cartridges that I don’t normally hand
load. I like to do some close range plinking just to practice sight
acquisition and trigger pull; I also am trying to transition my son
from his first .22 to shooting some centerfire rifles. Both of
these tasks are well-suited to reduced rifle loads. With reduced
rifle loads I even will dispatch the occasional pest or take a
squirrel or two. But, if you are not a reloader or if you choose
not to reload for a particular cartridge, where do you find
reduced loads?
A solution I have found for this
problem is the Hammond Game
Getter. This device is
manufactured by Brian Hammond
of Alberta, Canada and is available
from him (B. Hammond, Box 41061, Petrolia PO,
Edmonton, Alberta, Canada T6J 6M7;
www.gamegetter.ca). I was intrigued when I first saw the
Game Getter, so I contacted Brian and ordered one in 8x57
for my Yugo M48 Mauser.
My Game Getter arrived in a handy little plastic box about
the size of a cigarette pack. The box contained a modified
8x57 case, a small sizing die for sizing round balls or
buck shot to the
appropriate diameter, a few lead balls of the
appropriate size and an empty compartment for
power loads (more on these later). The whole
package is very compact and easily slips in your
pocket.
The actual Game Getter device is a modified
cartridge case. The brass head of the case has been
My M48 Yugoslavian Mauser
chambered in 8x57
The Game Getter with accessories in its
case
Remington power loads for power-actuated tools
replaced by (what appears to be) a stainless steel insert. The power for the Game Getter
“cartridge” comes from a blank .22 cartridge – the type commonly marketed by
Remington for power actuated tools (called a “power load”) not the type of blanks used
in starter pistols. The power loads come in a variety of strengths, indicated by their color
with the mildest charges colored grey, the next strongest brown, then green, and finally
yellow, the most powerful.
To load the Game Getter, a power load is placed in the stainless steel base, which holds
the power load off-center so that the centerfire rifle firing pin will strike the rim of the
power load and set off the charge. The projectile is a suitably size round ball (a little
larger than the bore diameter) which has been pushed through the tapered swage provided
with the Game Getter. This sized round ball is pressed into the mouth of the modified
cartridge case by finger pressure; and the Game Getter is ready to fire.
Since I am using my Game Getter in an 8x57 rifle (0.323” bore diameter), 00 Buck Shot
(0.33” diameter) is an appropriate projectile to size for my rifle. Although the
manufacturer did not suggest it, I lightly lubricated the buck shot with a dab of Lee
Resizing Lubricant before pushing the buck shot pellets
through the die. After sizing, the diameter of ten randomly
selected pellets averaged 0.3227” with a standard deviation
of only 0.0002”. Although not really necessary for the bullet
velocity of my planned tests, I also lightly lubricated the
sized pellets with Lee Liquid Alox to minimize the chance of
leading the barrel.
The modified cartridge case I received was a bit large for the
chamber of my M48. I was able to close the bolt with some
difficulty and after getting the bolt closed I was concerned
about getting the cartridge out. However, after several
firings the cartridge chambered noticeably easier and I had
no further chambering problems. The manufacturer suggests
that the lower power loads are the most accurate. After
The base of the Game Getter modified cartridge showing how the power load is inserted, and struck by the
rifle firing pin.
Sized buck shot pressed into the
mouth of the Game Getter modified
cartridge.
looking at the velocity data for the Game Getter in several chamberings on the
manufacturer’s website, I figured that either the brown or the green power loads would
give me the 700 to 900 feet per second (fps) velocity that I wanted.
Accuracy testing of the Game Getter in my M48 took place on a warm (for Northern
Wisconsin) November afternoon. The Game Getter is intended, according to the
manufacturer, for ranges of 25 yards or less. I chose two distances for accuracy testing,
one at 85 feet, a bit longer than the maximum range, and one at 45 feet, a typical squirrel
shooting distance. In my testing, I was trying to evaluate the practical accuracy of the
Game Getter rather than the full potential
accuracy. As a result, I only used a forearm
rest when shooting, rather than a bench rest
and sandbags. I wanted to know if I would be
able to shoot the Game Getter accurately
enough in the field to reliably pot small game.
One of the possible uses of the Game Getter
(where allowed by law) is the ability to swap
the Game Getter for a full-power hunting load
if small game presents itself while big game
hunting. With this idea in mind, the sights of
my M48, which are set for my hunting ammunition, were not adjusted for my tests of the
Game Getter. I wanted to see how far below the point of aim the shots from the Game
Getter would hit at my test distances.
Both the green power loads and the brown power loads were tested at 85 feet. Both
power levels of power loads produced reasonably good groups on the “long-range”
targets. The lower velocity brown power loads produced noticeably tighter groups,
averaging a little over an inch for five shots. I noticed an occasional flyer at 85 feet,
usually associated with a power load that sounded
quieter than most. Groups powered by the green power
loads clustered about 4.1 inches below the point of aim
while groups from the brown power loads were about
4.4 inches below the
point of aim. The
difference in velocity
between the two
different powered
power loads, as shown
by the amount of
relative bullet drop,
does not appear to be significant at this distance
When the range was decreased to 45 feet the brown
loads showed that they were indeed the power source of
choice for my 8x57. At this closer distance the groups
"Field rest" used in testing.
Group shot at 85 feet with brown
power loads
Group shot at 45 feet with brown power
loads
began to resemble a ragged hole. Typical group size at this range with the brown power
loads was about one inch or less and the groups were about 2.5 inches below the point of
aim. I am confident that in a rifle with more accuracy potential than my M48 and with a
good bench rest, the Game Getter could produce tighter groups than shown by my testing.
However, a one-inch group at 45 feet makes me confident that I could reliably head-shoot
squirrels within that range. In some informal practice after testing I tried holding over the
target bulls eye about 2.5 inches (about one and a half squirrel heads) and was able to
consistently place shots in the center ring of the target.
Bullet velocity 3 feet from the muzzle was tested for bullets powered by both the green
power loads and the brown power loads. Ten shots with the green power loads produced
an average velocity of 974 fps with a standard deviation of 21 fps. Another ten shots
with the brown power loads gave an average velocity of 792 fps with a standard deviation
of 39 fps. The lead Buck Shot I was using for bullets in these test had an average weight
of 52.5 grains.
While the 00 buckshot pellets fired in the M48 have been very slightly elongated during
sizing, some simple ballistic calculations can be made using the G2 ballistic coefficient
for 00 buckshot of 0.032. At 974 fps at the muzzle the green power loads produce a little
more than 103 foot/pounds of energy at the muzzle with the green power loads and 72
foot/pounds with the brown power loads. As a standard of comparison, Federal’s
American Eagle .22 ammunition leaves the barrel at a stated 1,260 fps with a muzzle
energy of 141 ft/lbs
Velocity (fps) Energy (ft/lbs) Bullet Drop
Load (in)
Muzzle 25 Yds. Muzzle 25 Yds. 25 Yds.
Game Getter - Green Load 947 857 103 84 1.3
Game Getter - Brown Load 792 729 72 61 2.3
Federal American Eagle .22 LR 1,260 1,193 140 126 0.7
Bullet Drop
8x57 Hammond Game Getter vs Federal .22 LR
-2.5
-2.0
-1.5
-1.0
-0.5
0.0
0 25 50 75
Range (feet)
Drop From Muzzle (inches)
Federal American Eagle .22 LR
Brown Load
Green Load
My limited tests have convinced me that the
Hammond Game Getter is all it is billed to be: an
easy to use, accurate, field-assembled cartridge
suitable for reduced velocity plinking, the taking
of close range small game with a big game rifle.
The workmanship of the modified casing is
excellent and looks like it will last longer than me.
This little device has earned a place in my range
box and I intend to keep it handy when hunting
with my M48.
While my testing was conducted with the 8x57 Hammond Game Getter, the
manufacturer’s website lists 91 other standard chamberings with a note that wildcat
chamberings can be provided upon request. I think my next trials will include my
7mm-08 and .223...or perhaps my .45-70…
Copyright ©2006 by Jim Berndt, all rights reserved
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